1
00:00:08,570 --> 00:00:17,189
[Music]

2
00:00:25,480 --> 00:00:20,679
welcome to shattered reality with your

3
00:00:28,510 --> 00:00:25,490
hosts Kate Valentine and furs prepare to

4
00:00:34,860 --> 00:00:28,520
have your paradigm shifted in the truths

5
00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:34,870
questioned and now shattered reality

6
00:00:42,130 --> 00:00:38,570
well hello Psychonauts here we are again

7
00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:42,140
at shattered reality my name is faroush

8
00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:48,970
ax and today is April 10th 2018 and most

9
00:00:54,700 --> 00:00:53,570
unfortunately once again today my

10
00:00:57,819 --> 00:00:54,710
partner in crime

11
00:01:01,030 --> 00:00:57,829
miss Kate Valentine cannot be with us

12
00:01:04,420 --> 00:01:01,040
and we're hoping to welcome her back for

13
00:01:08,440 --> 00:01:04,430
our next episode which will be in a

14
00:01:13,120 --> 00:01:08,450
couple weeks but today we have a real

15
00:01:16,450 --> 00:01:13,130
treat a sort of wonderful in his own

16
00:01:18,250 --> 00:01:16,460
right but sort of a follow-up to his

17
00:01:23,770 --> 00:01:18,260
wife who was on here about three shows

18
00:01:26,500 --> 00:01:23,780
ago we have mr. mark Baku Zee who is the

19
00:01:29,590 --> 00:01:26,510
co-founder of the wind bridge Institute

20
00:01:32,080 --> 00:01:29,600
and he holds a Bachelor of Science

21
00:01:35,590 --> 00:01:32,090
degree in computer science with a minor

22
00:01:38,590 --> 00:01:35,600
in broadcast communications mark has

23
00:01:41,580 --> 00:01:38,600
spent more than a decade investigating

24
00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:41,590
spontaneous cases of apparitions and

25
00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:44,810
related haunted phenomena in the San

26
00:01:51,789 --> 00:01:47,570
Francisco Bay Area and southern Arizona

27
00:01:54,749 --> 00:01:51,799
in 2005 he successfully completed the

28
00:01:57,359 --> 00:01:54,759
summer study program in parapsychology

29
00:02:00,520 --> 00:01:57,369
presented by the Institute of noetic

30
00:02:05,020 --> 00:02:00,530
Sciences also known to many of us as

31
00:02:06,399 --> 00:02:05,030
ions and the Rhine Research Center he is

32
00:02:09,550 --> 00:02:06,409
an associate member of the

33
00:02:12,390 --> 00:02:09,560
parapsychological Association Mark's

34
00:02:16,019 --> 00:02:12,400
research interests include intuition

35
00:02:19,149 --> 00:02:16,029
animals I applied psychokinesis

36
00:02:20,080 --> 00:02:19,159
photographic anomalies distant mental

37
00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:20,090
inter

38
00:02:25,780 --> 00:02:22,450
actions on living systems and

39
00:02:29,050 --> 00:02:25,790
instrumental transcommunication also

40
00:02:32,290 --> 00:02:29,060
known as ITC he is a two-time recipient

41
00:02:35,050 --> 00:02:32,300
of grants from the Helene reader

42
00:02:38,530 --> 00:02:35,060
Memorial Fund for research into life

43
00:02:40,800 --> 00:02:38,540
after death and a recipient a grant from

44
00:02:44,860 --> 00:02:40,810
the parapsychological Association

45
00:02:47,350 --> 00:02:44,870
Gilbert roller fund marks research has

46
00:02:50,110 --> 00:02:47,360
been presented at the annual meetings of

47
00:02:52,360 --> 00:02:50,120
the Society for scientific exploration

48
00:02:57,130 --> 00:02:52,370
and the parapsychological Association

49
00:02:59,770 --> 00:02:57,140
and towards science toward a science of

50
00:03:05,520 --> 00:02:59,780
consciousness and International Society

51
00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:05,530
for subtle energies and energy medicine

52
00:03:12,069 --> 00:03:09,250
otherwise known as I seem he is

53
00:03:15,460 --> 00:03:12,079
published in the Journal of scientific

54
00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:15,470
exploration and he is the author of a

55
00:03:21,610 --> 00:03:18,530
book and deck of cards called

56
00:03:22,270 --> 00:03:21,620
visualizing intention art informed by

57
00:03:26,140 --> 00:03:22,280
science

58
00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:26,150
welcome mark baku zi hi thank you so

59
00:03:32,140 --> 00:03:27,170
much for having me

60
00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:32,150
oh it's our pleasure entirely I think

61
00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:35,690
that we would like to start today or I

62
00:03:42,940 --> 00:03:39,410
would like to start today with what you

63
00:03:45,690 --> 00:03:42,950
did before you became the co-founder of

64
00:03:50,940 --> 00:03:45,700
the wind bridge institution it's

65
00:03:57,940 --> 00:03:55,360
so yes so I'm I'm not a traditionally

66
00:03:59,890 --> 00:03:57,950
trained scientist you know my wife for

67
00:04:02,319 --> 00:03:59,900
example dr. Julie by show who's the

68
00:04:04,839 --> 00:04:02,329
co-founder of the Institute with me and

69
00:04:06,909 --> 00:04:04,849
is now also the director of research at

70
00:04:08,289 --> 00:04:06,919
the recently formed wind bridge Research

71
00:04:09,970 --> 00:04:08,299
Center

72
00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:09,980
you know she's she went down the very

73
00:04:15,460 --> 00:04:13,730
traditional PhD route I started off I

74
00:04:18,969 --> 00:04:15,470
have as you said I have a background in

75
00:04:20,979 --> 00:04:18,979
computer science and I've always been

76
00:04:23,020 --> 00:04:20,989
interested in the paranormal and I'm

77
00:04:26,710 --> 00:04:23,030
using finger quotes to save paranormal

78
00:04:30,550 --> 00:04:26,720
but but I've got things like ghosts and

79
00:04:33,050 --> 00:04:30,560
Bigfoot and UFOs and you know all the

80
00:04:34,790 --> 00:04:33,060
things that parapsychology studies and

81
00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:34,800
I kind of realized that an early age

82
00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:37,050
that I probably would be robably be very

83
00:04:42,380 --> 00:04:38,490
difficult for me to make any kind of

84
00:04:44,810 --> 00:04:42,390
living doing that work full-time so I

85
00:04:47,030 --> 00:04:44,820
ended up going into computer science and

86
00:04:48,500 --> 00:04:47,040
then after I graduated from college I

87
00:04:51,140 --> 00:04:48,510
ended up working in the software

88
00:04:54,680 --> 00:04:51,150
industry for a number of years and I was

89
00:04:59,480 --> 00:04:54,690
a producer and I produced video games

90
00:05:02,800 --> 00:04:59,490
and and and then I started working for

91
00:05:05,810 --> 00:05:02,810
different nonprofit organizations and

92
00:05:08,630 --> 00:05:05,820
eventually I sort of got on to a more

93
00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:08,640
formal science track and I became a

94
00:05:15,620 --> 00:05:11,330
project manager at a museum and I was

95
00:05:16,580 --> 00:05:15,630
project overseeing projects that were

96
00:05:18,980 --> 00:05:16,590
funded by the National Science

97
00:05:21,230 --> 00:05:18,990
Foundation and the National Institutes

98
00:05:24,290 --> 00:05:21,240
of Health which kind of introduced me to

99
00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:24,300
that world and but always in the

100
00:05:31,659 --> 00:05:26,010
background was my sort of interest in

101
00:05:34,610 --> 00:05:31,669
parapsychology and I realized that while

102
00:05:37,460 --> 00:05:34,620
formal studies and things like telepathy

103
00:05:40,340 --> 00:05:37,470
and clairvoyance and precognition would

104
00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:40,350
require lots of specialized equipment

105
00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:42,410
and laboratory space and and

106
00:05:48,409 --> 00:05:46,410
participants the study of allegedly

107
00:05:51,830 --> 00:05:48,419
haunted locations on the other hand

108
00:05:54,560 --> 00:05:51,840
really just required me to go to those

109
00:05:56,360 --> 00:05:54,570
locations so I started doing that and I

110
00:06:00,050 --> 00:05:56,370
started visiting sites all over

111
00:06:03,290 --> 00:06:00,060
California and and I started collecting

112
00:06:06,620 --> 00:06:03,300
data and interviewing people who had

113
00:06:10,100 --> 00:06:06,630
ghost experiences and started working on

114
00:06:12,920 --> 00:06:10,110
protocols and processes and I learned a

115
00:06:17,690 --> 00:06:12,930
lot about how data collection works and

116
00:06:19,630 --> 00:06:17,700
how science works and I had I was I was

117
00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:19,640
a a big fan of the parapsychological

118
00:06:25,010 --> 00:06:21,810
Foundation or the parapsychology

119
00:06:28,210 --> 00:06:25,020
foundation sorry and I used a lot of

120
00:06:32,300 --> 00:06:28,220
their training materials at the time and

121
00:06:36,350 --> 00:06:32,310
yeah so one thing led to another and it

122
00:06:38,810 --> 00:06:36,360
was in 2005 that I had the opportunity

123
00:06:42,500 --> 00:06:38,820
to attend the studies the summer study

124
00:06:44,420 --> 00:06:42,510
program in parapsychology and that was

125
00:06:47,270 --> 00:06:44,430
taking place at the Institute of noetic

126
00:06:50,900 --> 00:06:47,280
Sciences ions at their campus

127
00:06:53,390 --> 00:06:50,910
petaluma it was a Jennifer yeah it's a

128
00:06:57,050 --> 00:06:53,400
great location can we take you back for

129
00:07:00,970 --> 00:06:57,060
a second just to go back to your time in

130
00:07:03,260 --> 00:07:00,980
the San Francisco Bay Area when you were

131
00:07:07,580 --> 00:07:03,270
investigating these apparitions and

132
00:07:09,830 --> 00:07:07,590
haunting phenomenas or phenomenon could

133
00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:09,840
you please give us an example of

134
00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:11,490
something you may have learned or an

135
00:07:19,640 --> 00:07:13,530
experience you may have had that maybe

136
00:07:21,710 --> 00:07:19,650
propelled you onward well what I yeah so

137
00:07:24,290 --> 00:07:21,720
what I learned about ghost hunting or

138
00:07:28,760 --> 00:07:24,300
paranormal investigation in the field is

139
00:07:32,030 --> 00:07:28,770
that it's really really boring you spend

140
00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:32,040
you spend a lot of time hunkered down in

141
00:07:39,530 --> 00:07:36,210
different places and and often the

142
00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:39,540
results aren't satisfying especially

143
00:07:44,930 --> 00:07:41,010
when you're looking at them through the

144
00:07:47,060 --> 00:07:44,940
lens of empirical research they're there

145
00:07:48,890 --> 00:07:47,070
there are lots of great ghost stories

146
00:07:52,370 --> 00:07:48,900
and there are lots of people who report

147
00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:52,380
all kinds of different phenomena but

148
00:07:59,030 --> 00:07:55,290
oftentimes we couldn't recreate those

149
00:08:01,190 --> 00:07:59,040
effects often time we would find that

150
00:08:02,930 --> 00:08:01,200
not often but we would sometimes find

151
00:08:05,570 --> 00:08:02,940
that the people that report were

152
00:08:08,120 --> 00:08:05,580
reporting them there were other issues

153
00:08:10,730 --> 00:08:08,130
involved and so when you focused on

154
00:08:12,590 --> 00:08:10,740
those other personal injury issues or

155
00:08:15,170 --> 00:08:12,600
interpersonal issues a lot of the

156
00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:15,180
phenomena didn't hang around it sort of

157
00:08:20,930 --> 00:08:18,810
went away so there was that and then

158
00:08:25,159 --> 00:08:20,940
there were other so I would investigate

159
00:08:28,790 --> 00:08:25,169
both private homes and also haunted

160
00:08:31,490 --> 00:08:28,800
locations like like the USS Hornet in

161
00:08:33,560 --> 00:08:31,500
Alameda California which is a an

162
00:08:36,950 --> 00:08:33,570
aircraft carrier world war two aircraft

163
00:08:39,709 --> 00:08:36,960
carrier which is now a museum and that

164
00:08:43,339 --> 00:08:39,719
has a bunch of great haunted history and

165
00:08:44,840 --> 00:08:43,349
stories around it and I was able to get

166
00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:44,850
on board that ship and spend the night

167
00:08:49,940 --> 00:08:47,610
there a number of times and made a lot

168
00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:49,950
of visits there but the problem when

169
00:08:55,040 --> 00:08:52,610
you're trying to collect control data

170
00:08:56,750 --> 00:08:55,050
environmental data or even record for

171
00:08:59,420 --> 00:08:56,760
electronic voice phenomena or things

172
00:09:00,320 --> 00:08:59,430
like that is that an aircraft carrier is

173
00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:00,330
a really

174
00:09:12,350 --> 00:09:09,110
it's big it echos there's raccoons

175
00:09:15,230 --> 00:09:12,360
whatever like it's a it's a it's a very

176
00:09:18,050 --> 00:09:15,240
difficult environment to work in and

177
00:09:19,940 --> 00:09:18,060
things are no repeatable exactly you

178
00:09:22,550 --> 00:09:19,950
can't reproduce it that's what makes

179
00:09:25,460 --> 00:09:22,560
some of this difficult to scientifically

180
00:09:29,330 --> 00:09:25,470
investigate because phenomenon don't

181
00:09:31,280 --> 00:09:29,340
necessarily repeat it would you say yeah

182
00:09:33,500 --> 00:09:31,290
absolutely so yeah we were spending a

183
00:09:34,820 --> 00:09:33,510
lot of time me and my team are spending

184
00:09:37,580 --> 00:09:34,830
a lot of time sort of just trying to

185
00:09:40,790 --> 00:09:37,590
document whatever spontaneous phenomena

186
00:09:42,620 --> 00:09:40,800
would pop up but and we did we had you

187
00:09:47,090 --> 00:09:42,630
know photographic anomalies and some

188
00:09:48,830 --> 00:09:47,100
strange EVPs and objects that move which

189
00:09:51,560 --> 00:09:48,840
shouldn't have and things like that but

190
00:09:53,540 --> 00:09:51,570
um so I'm definitely convinced that

191
00:09:57,950 --> 00:09:53,550
there's something going on but it's

192
00:10:00,950 --> 00:09:57,960
really difficult to sort of tie that

193
00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:00,960
down or really for me to feel really

194
00:10:07,250 --> 00:10:05,010
satisfied with getting more concrete or

195
00:10:10,820 --> 00:10:07,260
definitive answers from that line of

196
00:10:13,160 --> 00:10:10,830
work and and then over the years it also

197
00:10:15,230 --> 00:10:13,170
just it became more and more difficult

198
00:10:17,990 --> 00:10:15,240
ghost hunting in general we started to

199
00:10:20,810 --> 00:10:18,000
become much more popular and so there

200
00:10:23,030 --> 00:10:20,820
were these sort of gangs of ghost

201
00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:23,040
hunting groups that were showing up at

202
00:10:29,810 --> 00:10:25,290
different locations and then certain

203
00:10:32,180 --> 00:10:29,820
locations would not allow the level of

204
00:10:33,380 --> 00:10:32,190
access that they had previously because

205
00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:33,390
there are all these people running

206
00:10:39,620 --> 00:10:36,810
around now other places would inflate

207
00:10:42,230 --> 00:10:39,630
the the kinds of phenomena that were

208
00:10:43,940 --> 00:10:42,240
being reported so you never really knew

209
00:10:46,700 --> 00:10:43,950
if you were going somewhere that had

210
00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:46,710
legitimate phenomena or just marketing

211
00:10:53,150 --> 00:10:50,610
right um and yeah so it just became sort

212
00:10:55,270 --> 00:10:53,160
of a trial and then the other thing that

213
00:11:02,270 --> 00:10:55,280
happened to which was interesting was

214
00:11:03,730 --> 00:11:02,280
the public became really aware or sort

215
00:11:07,070 --> 00:11:03,740
of what I what I call paranormal

216
00:11:09,170 --> 00:11:07,080
paranormal e primed so with all the

217
00:11:11,180 --> 00:11:09,180
ghost hunting shows that were on TV and

218
00:11:13,110 --> 00:11:11,190
the popularity of all this stuff in the

219
00:11:16,470 --> 00:11:13,120
in the

220
00:11:18,780 --> 00:11:16,480
every little thing though that people

221
00:11:21,300 --> 00:11:18,790
would normally take a step back and go

222
00:11:24,150 --> 00:11:21,310
oh well that was strange I'll think

223
00:11:28,590 --> 00:11:24,160
critically about that suddenly became a

224
00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:28,600
ghost instantaneously so and actually

225
00:11:32,070 --> 00:11:30,010
wrote a paper about this it's in our

226
00:11:35,790 --> 00:11:32,080
journal threshold that looks at the

227
00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:35,800
changes in language that were used in my

228
00:11:40,650 --> 00:11:38,050
early days of paranormal investigation

229
00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:40,660
in the field of when people would email

230
00:11:47,670 --> 00:11:44,890
me requests for investigations in the

231
00:11:51,410 --> 00:11:47,680
first few years versus the second half

232
00:11:54,300 --> 00:11:51,420
of the I think it's six years that I

233
00:11:57,030 --> 00:11:54,310
that I did investigations and it's a

234
00:12:01,320 --> 00:11:57,040
drastic change in the language that's

235
00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:01,330
used to describe the events over time in

236
00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:02,890
the beginning people were much more

237
00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:06,970
inquisitive and sort of engaged and in

238
00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:09,490
the more recent time it's much more like

239
00:12:13,590 --> 00:12:11,170
there's a ghost in my house get it out

240
00:12:16,230 --> 00:12:13,600
of here now right like it's very well

241
00:12:19,010 --> 00:12:16,240
direct and I don't want to I don't want

242
00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:19,020
to put all that change on just

243
00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:22,210
paranormal television and are below our

244
00:12:25,560 --> 00:12:23,530
belief of the paranormal and they have

245
00:12:27,650 --> 00:12:25,570
changed because we communicate very

246
00:12:30,180 --> 00:12:27,660
differently now especially

247
00:12:32,640 --> 00:12:30,190
electronically right these people used

248
00:12:34,230 --> 00:12:32,650
to sit down and write emails and sent

249
00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:34,240
which were basically electronical

250
00:12:40,260 --> 00:12:36,370
letters and now it's just whatever

251
00:12:44,520 --> 00:12:40,270
microblog or kind of 300 text or

252
00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:44,530
whatever you know so but it's the the

253
00:12:48,030 --> 00:12:46,210
difference is really striking it's it

254
00:12:49,530 --> 00:12:48,040
was an interesting revelation for me to

255
00:12:53,010 --> 00:12:49,540
see the change and I think it's that

256
00:12:55,620 --> 00:12:53,020
changed happen my sort of interests

257
00:12:57,000 --> 00:12:55,630
changed as well I'll still do field

258
00:12:59,190 --> 00:12:57,010
investigation if there's something

259
00:13:00,960 --> 00:12:59,200
really really interesting but it's not

260
00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:00,970
really where I put my efforts these days

261
00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:04,210
well just to to wrap that part up I

262
00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:07,210
would say that if you have a network or

263
00:13:14,130 --> 00:13:11,170
a production company spending money and

264
00:13:21,830 --> 00:13:14,140
going to a location they want something

265
00:13:26,630 --> 00:13:25,280
yeah I I would assume that it

266
00:13:28,550 --> 00:13:26,640
you know it's interesting cuz even the

267
00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:28,560
way this shows had progressed over the

268
00:13:33,380 --> 00:13:30,450
years like there were some ghost

269
00:13:35,090 --> 00:13:33,390
paranormal shows where like the first

270
00:13:37,070 --> 00:13:35,100
couple of seasons it was all like oh

271
00:13:38,300 --> 00:13:37,080
look we're going to this place and who's

272
00:13:40,910 --> 00:13:38,310
getting scared and what's the

273
00:13:42,260 --> 00:13:40,920
interpersonal dynamics between the team

274
00:13:44,630 --> 00:13:42,270
members and then suddenly it was like

275
00:13:46,460 --> 00:13:44,640
and they very seldom found a ghost and

276
00:13:49,030 --> 00:13:46,470
then suddenly it was like every place

277
00:13:52,010 --> 00:13:49,040
they went to you found a ghost exactly

278
00:13:55,100 --> 00:13:52,020
we would find ghosts they had to have

279
00:13:57,620 --> 00:13:55,110
that marketing going on there too going

280
00:13:59,150 --> 00:13:57,630
so you know I get it it's entertainment

281
00:14:01,040 --> 00:13:59,160
it's unscripted entertainment and that's

282
00:14:03,650 --> 00:14:01,050
fine it says those shows were never

283
00:14:05,690 --> 00:14:03,660
meant to be scientific or documentaries

284
00:14:08,900 --> 00:14:05,700
about paranormal phenomena they were

285
00:14:10,580 --> 00:14:08,910
meant to be you know fun and tell a

286
00:14:12,910 --> 00:14:10,590
scary story and there's nothing wrong

287
00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:12,920
with that no but they change public

288
00:14:20,300 --> 00:14:17,130
expectation of what can be reproducible

289
00:14:23,180 --> 00:14:20,310
or how readily one can find paranormal

290
00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:23,190
phenomena yeah that that is very true it

291
00:14:30,350 --> 00:14:26,610
really did sort of frame not only the

292
00:14:33,460 --> 00:14:30,360
public's understanding or how they how

293
00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:33,470
they how they came to understand or

294
00:14:41,690 --> 00:14:39,210
believe or train paranormal events but

295
00:14:44,270 --> 00:14:41,700
also from a paranormal investigation

296
00:14:47,330 --> 00:14:44,280
perspective it really sort of a lot of

297
00:14:49,730 --> 00:14:47,340
those shows really set the template of

298
00:14:52,730 --> 00:14:49,740
how those investigative groups would

299
00:14:56,630 --> 00:14:52,740
work and a lot of those methods are

300
00:14:58,370 --> 00:14:56,640
actually really poor mm-hm so and they

301
00:14:59,990 --> 00:14:58,380
kind of got carried over because these

302
00:15:02,210 --> 00:15:00,000
were things that people were we're

303
00:15:03,950 --> 00:15:02,220
seeing on TV and so they're like oh I

304
00:15:06,470 --> 00:15:03,960
have a piece of equipment so now I'm

305
00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:06,480
suddenly scientific yeah and my big

306
00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:09,570
thing is equipment is good and equipment

307
00:15:15,650 --> 00:15:12,810
is useful but it's just equipment

308
00:15:17,030 --> 00:15:15,660
science is a method so it doesn't matter

309
00:15:18,890 --> 00:15:17,040
what kind of equipment you have it

310
00:15:23,390 --> 00:15:18,900
really matters on how you're using it

311
00:15:27,310 --> 00:15:23,400
absolutely absolutely so moving on from

312
00:15:31,010 --> 00:15:27,320
the the San Francisco Bay Area

313
00:15:34,130 --> 00:15:31,020
apparitions etc you then went on to a

314
00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:34,140
study at the Rhine Research Center

315
00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:36,930
program which was produced at Petaluma

316
00:15:44,949 --> 00:15:37,610
at

317
00:15:47,170 --> 00:15:44,959
the pleasure of you know learning some

318
00:15:49,810 --> 00:15:47,180
of hearing lectures from Dean Radin and

319
00:15:53,889 --> 00:15:49,820
Christine Simmons Moore and a number of

320
00:15:56,860 --> 00:15:53,899
other prominent researchers and and they

321
00:16:00,220 --> 00:15:56,870
were great and I also while I was there

322
00:16:01,690 --> 00:16:00,230
met dr. Julie by shell uh-huh and what

323
00:16:04,509 --> 00:16:01,700
was interesting about that was that at

324
00:16:05,880 --> 00:16:04,519
the time she was finishing her post or

325
00:16:08,530 --> 00:16:05,890
she was in the middle of her postdoc

326
00:16:12,069 --> 00:16:08,540
studying mediumship at the University of

327
00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:12,079
Arizona and it was pretty much me and

328
00:16:16,540 --> 00:16:13,610
maybe a couple of other people that were

329
00:16:18,759 --> 00:16:16,550
that were interested in survival but the

330
00:16:21,340 --> 00:16:18,769
rest of the group there was sort of just

331
00:16:23,590 --> 00:16:21,350
interested in general parapsychology

332
00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:23,600
topics and that's sort of the running

333
00:16:27,550 --> 00:16:25,610
joke it's sort of my running joke in

334
00:16:31,389 --> 00:16:27,560
parapsychology is you know it's it's

335
00:16:33,340 --> 00:16:31,399
telepathy clairvoyance precognition mind

336
00:16:35,829 --> 00:16:33,350
matter interaction and we'll put up with

337
00:16:38,740 --> 00:16:35,839
survival as well right it's that's the

338
00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:38,750
that's the stepchild of parapsychology I

339
00:16:43,540 --> 00:16:40,610
think right yeah so even within the

340
00:16:45,730 --> 00:16:43,550
fringe topic of parapsychology survival

341
00:16:47,350 --> 00:16:45,740
research is pretty on the edge there as

342
00:16:50,259 --> 00:16:47,360
well although it is getting more and

343
00:16:52,210 --> 00:16:50,269
more more and more interest actually in

344
00:16:56,170 --> 00:16:52,220
the field I'm always surprised when I

345
00:16:59,380 --> 00:16:56,180
see someone publish a paper or give a

346
00:17:02,050 --> 00:16:59,390
lecture or talk about a very specific

347
00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:02,060
survival related topics it's it's um

348
00:17:05,829 --> 00:17:04,250
it's good it's get been gaining more

349
00:17:07,360 --> 00:17:05,839
traction in the last few years and that

350
00:17:09,340 --> 00:17:07,370
that's me is pretty exciting it's

351
00:17:13,090 --> 00:17:09,350
fascinating it's a fascinating subject

352
00:17:16,770 --> 00:17:13,100
and so you and dr. Julie buy shield

353
00:17:21,429 --> 00:17:16,780
teamed up both in work and in life and

354
00:17:24,970 --> 00:17:21,439
you founded the wind bridge Institute

355
00:17:28,690 --> 00:17:24,980
how did that come about yeah so so Julie

356
00:17:32,470 --> 00:17:28,700
and I met in 2005 but now flash-forward

357
00:17:37,120 --> 00:17:32,480
to 2007 and I'm actually living in

358
00:17:39,970 --> 00:17:37,130
Arizona now I moved to Tucson and Julie

359
00:17:42,430 --> 00:17:39,980
was now finishing her postdoc work at

360
00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:42,440
the University of Arizona and so this

361
00:17:47,860 --> 00:17:46,490
was in late 2007 and she she was like

362
00:17:50,140 --> 00:17:47,870
well what's my next move what are we

363
00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:50,150
gonna do and so she started looking she

364
00:17:54,340 --> 00:17:51,290
wanted to continue to do

365
00:17:56,260 --> 00:17:54,350
mediumship research and so she reached

366
00:17:58,780 --> 00:17:56,270
out to some other departments at the U

367
00:18:00,370 --> 00:17:58,790
of A and in other places and you know

368
00:18:03,280 --> 00:18:00,380
mediumship research is pretty

369
00:18:05,860 --> 00:18:03,290
controversial and there also isn't a lot

370
00:18:10,810 --> 00:18:05,870
of funding so it became pretty difficult

371
00:18:12,070 --> 00:18:10,820
for her to find a home and the two of us

372
00:18:15,070 --> 00:18:12,080
were sitting around and were like well

373
00:18:16,750 --> 00:18:15,080
what's what are we gonna do and we had

374
00:18:20,290 --> 00:18:16,760
been talking to some other people and

375
00:18:22,470 --> 00:18:20,300
and the idea came up that well maybe

376
00:18:26,620 --> 00:18:22,480
it's time for us to start our own

377
00:18:28,870 --> 00:18:26,630
independent research organization and so

378
00:18:34,360 --> 00:18:28,880
we scrounged around and we found some

379
00:18:36,730 --> 00:18:34,370
change in the couch and we debated a

380
00:18:40,690 --> 00:18:36,740
name and we talked to some other friends

381
00:18:42,670 --> 00:18:40,700
and we talked to some advisors and the

382
00:18:44,410 --> 00:18:42,680
idea of starting the wind bridge

383
00:18:46,390 --> 00:18:44,420
Institute was bored and the first thing

384
00:18:50,740 --> 00:18:46,400
we did was one out we secured the domain

385
00:18:54,460 --> 00:18:50,750
name wind bridge org and and then we

386
00:18:57,430 --> 00:18:54,470
filed the paperwork and then by to early

387
00:19:01,450 --> 00:18:57,440
2008 we had officially formed the wind

388
00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:01,460
bridge Institute LLC for Applied

389
00:19:07,540 --> 00:19:05,330
Research and human potential and that's

390
00:19:11,740 --> 00:19:07,550
how that started and then Julie was able

391
00:19:13,450 --> 00:19:11,750
to use the Institute as a platform for

392
00:19:15,220 --> 00:19:13,460
her own work so we were able to apply

393
00:19:17,230 --> 00:19:15,230
for different kinds of grants and get

394
00:19:19,120 --> 00:19:17,240
different kinds of funding we attracted

395
00:19:21,580 --> 00:19:19,130
a team nothing ever happens in a vacuum

396
00:19:22,990 --> 00:19:21,590
right so something like the wimbur gence

397
00:19:25,330 --> 00:19:23,000
that you never would have happened if we

398
00:19:29,290 --> 00:19:25,340
didn't have collaborative researchers

399
00:19:30,820 --> 00:19:29,300
and amazing advisers and you know people

400
00:19:32,380 --> 00:19:30,830
and our scientific advisory board that

401
00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:32,390
stepped up and people in our community

402
00:19:36,970 --> 00:19:35,210
boards and just support from the general

403
00:19:39,610 --> 00:19:36,980
public of people who were like yes the

404
00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:39,620
this needs to happen so we were really

405
00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:41,210
you know it's funny we've kind of felt

406
00:19:44,020 --> 00:19:42,170
like all these different doors were

407
00:19:47,460 --> 00:19:44,030
closing and then the minute we sort of

408
00:19:50,650 --> 00:19:47,470
decided that yeah let's do the Institute

409
00:19:51,700 --> 00:19:50,660
BAM all these doors started to open up

410
00:19:54,490 --> 00:19:51,710
for us and all these opportunities

411
00:19:55,870 --> 00:19:54,500
started to open up for us and that's

412
00:19:59,890 --> 00:19:55,880
been and we've been doing that for 10

413
00:20:05,669 --> 00:19:59,900
years that's wonderful and you worked

414
00:20:08,909 --> 00:20:05,679
with julie in finding certain mediums

415
00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:08,919
passed muster with the tests that were

416
00:20:18,390 --> 00:20:13,210
given that they had a they scored high

417
00:20:20,220 --> 00:20:18,400
on on the reliability tests that every

418
00:20:24,630 --> 00:20:20,230
time that they read someone in a

419
00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:24,640
quadruple blind manner which Julie

420
00:20:32,519 --> 00:20:28,570
explained to us as you developed a sort

421
00:20:36,419 --> 00:20:32,529
of stable of mediums that had a p-value

422
00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:36,429
of reliability in in their tests is that

423
00:20:39,899 --> 00:20:37,450
is that correct

424
00:20:42,120 --> 00:20:39,909
yeah there were a number of people

425
00:20:45,389 --> 00:20:42,130
involved in those those projects in the

426
00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:45,399
early days of screening mediums and

427
00:20:51,090 --> 00:20:48,610
pre-screening mediums for use for to see

428
00:20:56,310 --> 00:20:51,100
if they would qualify to participate in

429
00:20:58,380 --> 00:20:56,320
larger research studies and so that

430
00:21:00,750 --> 00:20:58,390
particular screening process required

431
00:21:02,930 --> 00:21:00,760
three different investigators and I was

432
00:21:06,330 --> 00:21:02,940
one of the investigators on that team

433
00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:06,340
Julie was the lead investigator and the

434
00:21:10,139 --> 00:21:09,010
way it works is the informations very

435
00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:10,149
very segmented

436
00:21:14,730 --> 00:21:12,730
so for example I never talked to a

437
00:21:17,610 --> 00:21:14,740
medium like that was never part of my

438
00:21:19,590 --> 00:21:17,620
job where Julie never talked to a sitter

439
00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:19,600
because that wasn't part of her job so

440
00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:21,250
the information was all very

441
00:21:27,360 --> 00:21:24,610
compartmentalized and so basically I for

442
00:21:30,630 --> 00:21:27,370
those studies I just sort of pushed

443
00:21:32,610 --> 00:21:30,640
paperwork around which is which is fine

444
00:21:34,250 --> 00:21:32,620
because that's what a lot of research is

445
00:21:37,470 --> 00:21:34,260
involved in these that you know like

446
00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:37,480
there needs to be the guy who makes sure

447
00:21:42,180 --> 00:21:39,970
everything flows and goes in order of

448
00:21:44,940 --> 00:21:42,190
things so that's that was my stuff so as

449
00:21:47,220 --> 00:21:44,950
far as the mediumship research goes I

450
00:21:48,810 --> 00:21:47,230
really would like to appoint people back

451
00:21:52,260 --> 00:21:48,820
to Julie's interview that you did with

452
00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:52,270
her excellent interview and she is far

453
00:21:58,049 --> 00:21:54,610
more qualified to talk about the

454
00:22:00,810 --> 00:21:58,059
day-to-day details of the mediumship

455
00:22:03,260 --> 00:22:00,820
work at the Institute yes now at the at

456
00:22:06,149 --> 00:22:03,270
the center than I am that's really her

457
00:22:08,130 --> 00:22:06,159
that's the that's where Valley West a

458
00:22:11,460 --> 00:22:08,140
few ways yeah and I'll also just make

459
00:22:14,130 --> 00:22:11,470
this plug - she wrote a really great

460
00:22:16,139 --> 00:22:14,140
little ebook called among mediums a

461
00:22:17,380 --> 00:22:16,149
scientists search for requests for

462
00:22:19,690 --> 00:22:17,390
answers

463
00:22:22,380 --> 00:22:19,700
it's available on Amazon and it's short

464
00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:22,390
and it's quick and it's inexpensive and

465
00:22:28,049 --> 00:22:24,890
it really sort of covers her background

466
00:22:30,070 --> 00:22:28,059
and sort of her overall approach to

467
00:22:31,270 --> 00:22:30,080
mediumship research to date it's a

468
00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:31,280
little outdated now but it's definitely

469
00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:34,490
worth a read if people haven't read it

470
00:22:39,730 --> 00:22:37,250
she's amazing and we did have her on the

471
00:22:43,090 --> 00:22:39,740
program but today is your day to talk

472
00:22:47,620 --> 00:22:43,100
about what you're doing now and your

473
00:22:50,350 --> 00:22:47,630
research just a stepping aside sorta to

474
00:22:56,860 --> 00:22:50,360
the side and getting back to your days

475
00:23:01,560 --> 00:22:56,870
of investigating ITC you are aware that

476
00:23:04,780 --> 00:23:01,570
when we interviewed Tom Butler who is

477
00:23:07,090 --> 00:23:04,790
quite well known in the ITC field in

478
00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:07,100
fact I believe I'm not looking at his

479
00:23:11,580 --> 00:23:08,450
interview right at the moment because

480
00:23:16,630 --> 00:23:11,590
I'm talking to you but I believe that

481
00:23:20,370 --> 00:23:16,640
his association is transcommunication

482
00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:20,380
and is included in the the name it's a

483
00:23:25,450 --> 00:23:22,450
instrumental transcommunication

484
00:23:28,659 --> 00:23:25,460
something and he was on the show with us

485
00:23:34,659 --> 00:23:28,669
and and gave a very powerful interview

486
00:23:41,220 --> 00:23:34,669
and when we hung up with him we had a an

487
00:23:44,340 --> 00:23:41,230
instance of an EVP come on our show

488
00:23:48,700 --> 00:23:44,350
after we hung up with him now our

489
00:23:51,730 --> 00:23:48,710
wonderful engineer bill was recording on

490
00:23:54,250 --> 00:23:51,740
three different lines that day three

491
00:23:56,650 --> 00:23:54,260
channels and Tom's channel he said

492
00:24:01,090 --> 00:23:56,660
goodbye his channel was closed by Bill

493
00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:01,100
so what remained was my channel and Kate

494
00:24:05,740 --> 00:24:04,010
Valentine's Channel and we were wrapping

495
00:24:07,570 --> 00:24:05,750
up the show you know a little bit of

496
00:24:10,830 --> 00:24:07,580
banter that we do back and forth tell

497
00:24:15,490 --> 00:24:10,840
people to like us on Facebook etc and

498
00:24:17,470 --> 00:24:15,500
all of a sudden Kate hears this strange

499
00:24:19,780 --> 00:24:17,480
noise now I could also hear the noise

500
00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:19,790
but it was much clearer in her ear

501
00:24:24,430 --> 00:24:22,010
because it was coming through her track

502
00:24:28,030 --> 00:24:24,440
and I know that you may have had an

503
00:24:31,070 --> 00:24:28,040
opportunity to listen to this a 20

504
00:24:34,700 --> 00:24:31,080
second clip that was on that

505
00:24:36,470 --> 00:24:34,710
on our show so I wanted to know if you

506
00:24:38,450 --> 00:24:36,480
had an opinion on it if you'd like to

507
00:24:41,779 --> 00:24:38,460
weigh in a little bit on what what

508
00:24:43,490 --> 00:24:41,789
happened there sure so I did have a

509
00:24:45,019 --> 00:24:43,500
chance to listen to the clip and it's

510
00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:45,029
it's cool right it's a really

511
00:24:53,210 --> 00:24:48,090
interesting sound I couldn't really make

512
00:24:54,830 --> 00:24:53,220
out what it was exactly but so but

513
00:24:57,350 --> 00:24:54,840
before I kind of go into that

514
00:25:00,649 --> 00:24:57,360
specifically I think first off I want to

515
00:25:02,450 --> 00:25:00,659
say that I love instrumental

516
00:25:06,230 --> 00:25:02,460
transcommunication as an area of

517
00:25:08,810 --> 00:25:06,240
research I think it is really super

518
00:25:12,620 --> 00:25:08,820
interesting I think it's it's really at

519
00:25:14,419 --> 00:25:12,630
its infancy in terms of what we truly

520
00:25:16,549 --> 00:25:14,429
understand about the phenomena there's a

521
00:25:19,190 --> 00:25:16,559
lot of people out there doing a lot of

522
00:25:22,070 --> 00:25:19,200
really cool things but a lot of it is

523
00:25:23,539 --> 00:25:22,080
taking place and I don't want this to

524
00:25:25,639 --> 00:25:23,549
sound disparaging because it's not but

525
00:25:27,980 --> 00:25:25,649
like in people's workshops and in

526
00:25:29,810 --> 00:25:27,990
basements and in their homes and and

527
00:25:32,570 --> 00:25:29,820
they're developing all these kinds of

528
00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:32,580
interesting techniques and technologies

529
00:25:38,930 --> 00:25:36,570
and and they're we're getting a lot of

530
00:25:40,730 --> 00:25:38,940
interesting reports of different kinds

531
00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:40,740
of phenomena that are being reported in

532
00:25:44,299 --> 00:25:42,690
different kinds of communication but

533
00:25:47,990 --> 00:25:44,309
science hasn't really jumped on the

534
00:25:49,820 --> 00:25:48,000
bandwagon yet and for better or for

535
00:25:51,740 --> 00:25:49,830
worse right for some people they'll be

536
00:25:53,659 --> 00:25:51,750
like what a science no science doesn't

537
00:25:56,779 --> 00:25:53,669
need to tell me what I'm experiencing

538
00:25:59,779 --> 00:25:56,789
but as an empiricist like I think that

539
00:26:01,639 --> 00:25:59,789
stuff is fascinating and I want to bring

540
00:26:03,169 --> 00:26:01,649
it into the lab and I have I like you

541
00:26:06,049 --> 00:26:03,179
mentioned I have received a couple of

542
00:26:08,930 --> 00:26:06,059
grants from the Helene reader Memorial

543
00:26:10,730 --> 00:26:08,940
Fund to look at dis invited discarnate

544
00:26:15,379 --> 00:26:10,740
effects on different kinds of devices

545
00:26:18,799 --> 00:26:15,389
and like that and so I think this is a

546
00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:18,809
really cool area of inquiry and I am but

547
00:26:22,899 --> 00:26:20,850
I'm very cautious when I go into it

548
00:26:26,180 --> 00:26:22,909
because while there's a lot of cool

549
00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:26,190
stories like like we had ghost stories

550
00:26:33,950 --> 00:26:30,450
in the field I'm waiting for the rigor

551
00:26:37,370 --> 00:26:33,960
of the science to catch up with the

552
00:26:40,340 --> 00:26:37,380
experiences I agree with you on that

553
00:26:42,500 --> 00:26:40,350
Marc simply because when you're doing

554
00:26:44,930 --> 00:26:42,510
something in your basement or your

555
00:26:47,270 --> 00:26:44,940
workshop if you don't

556
00:26:50,690 --> 00:26:47,280
have certain controls which this

557
00:26:54,850 --> 00:26:50,700
scientific method provides you can

558
00:26:59,150 --> 00:26:54,860
mistake something that is not

559
00:27:02,090 --> 00:26:59,160
communication for communication but in

560
00:27:04,340 --> 00:27:02,100
terms of science we don't want to move

561
00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:04,350
towards the realm of scientism as

562
00:27:09,260 --> 00:27:06,570
opposed to science because that can

563
00:27:12,050 --> 00:27:09,270
really shut things down in a nasty way

564
00:27:15,770 --> 00:27:12,060
oh absolutely I completely agree and so

565
00:27:17,750 --> 00:27:15,780
I actually wrote a paper about an ITC

566
00:27:21,350 --> 00:27:17,760
paper with Julie she co-authored it with

567
00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:21,360
me a few years ago was in the Journal of

568
00:27:26,360 --> 00:27:23,490
scientific exploration it's available on

569
00:27:30,980 --> 00:27:26,370
our site and it it looked at us very

570
00:27:32,930 --> 00:27:30,990
specific kind of ITC using a device

571
00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:32,940
using a piece of software called EVP

572
00:27:38,120 --> 00:27:34,770
maker and we looked at a bunch of

573
00:27:39,980 --> 00:27:38,130
different pieces of that experience we

574
00:27:43,190 --> 00:27:39,990
looked at it statistically we looked at

575
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:43,200
it we looked at it with using blinded

576
00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:45,450
double blinded randomized listening

577
00:27:54,260 --> 00:27:51,810
panels we we we got feedback from the

578
00:27:56,060 --> 00:27:54,270
actual operator who collected the

579
00:27:58,700 --> 00:27:56,070
samples and so she gave us her

580
00:28:01,010 --> 00:27:58,710
impressions of and her interpretation of

581
00:28:03,050 --> 00:28:01,020
the of what she was recording and so

582
00:28:05,330 --> 00:28:03,060
it's very comprehensive it was an

583
00:28:06,860 --> 00:28:05,340
exploratory study I want to say that

584
00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:06,870
because we didn't we didn't have a lot

585
00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:07,890
of data we didn't have a lot of

586
00:28:12,860 --> 00:28:10,890
experienced operators at the time so it

587
00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:12,870
sort of just sets the framework of some

588
00:28:19,310 --> 00:28:16,050
methodology and some processes of how

589
00:28:22,450 --> 00:28:19,320
one might go ahead and look at certain

590
00:28:25,460 --> 00:28:22,460
kinds of ITC under controlled conditions

591
00:28:28,220 --> 00:28:25,470
so the statistical it's the statistical

592
00:28:31,370 --> 00:28:28,230
results are underpowered but I think

593
00:28:33,110 --> 00:28:31,380
it's all valid from my perspective so

594
00:28:37,190 --> 00:28:33,120
anyway so there there are ways to do

595
00:28:39,590 --> 00:28:37,200
this I think scientifically and

596
00:28:42,980 --> 00:28:39,600
systematically while still being

597
00:28:48,580 --> 00:28:42,990
respectful of the process and the

598
00:28:52,130 --> 00:28:48,590
phenomena so so for me when I talk about

599
00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:52,140
ITC or EVP samples there's sort of five

600
00:28:58,100 --> 00:28:56,010
levels of evaluation I kind of have to

601
00:29:00,320 --> 00:28:58,110
bring the thing through

602
00:29:02,870 --> 00:29:00,330
and just really quickly we need to know

603
00:29:05,270 --> 00:29:02,880
how the sample was collected was it a

604
00:29:06,860 --> 00:29:05,280
spontaneous sample or was it collected

605
00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:06,870
under some kind of laboratory controlled

606
00:29:10,850 --> 00:29:08,850
conditions and what exactly were those

607
00:29:14,289 --> 00:29:10,860
controls and what were they controlling

608
00:29:17,419 --> 00:29:14,299
for or against right or accounting for

609
00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:17,429
and then once we have the sample we need

610
00:29:22,820 --> 00:29:19,170
to determine whether or not that the

611
00:29:26,270 --> 00:29:22,830
sample was truly from a paranormal or

612
00:29:28,610 --> 00:29:26,280
anomalous source right and that's easier

613
00:29:31,930 --> 00:29:28,620
to do under controlled conditions than

614
00:29:35,060 --> 00:29:31,940
it is under spontaneous conditions right

615
00:29:37,730 --> 00:29:35,070
and then then the third thing we need to

616
00:29:41,210 --> 00:29:37,740
do is once we hear the sample a lot of

617
00:29:43,789 --> 00:29:41,220
people try to try to assign meaning to

618
00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:43,799
the sample and so this is where things

619
00:29:51,409 --> 00:29:46,650
get really difficult really quickly

620
00:29:54,049 --> 00:29:51,419
because as human beings we're trained to

621
00:29:58,010 --> 00:29:54,059
find meaning in chaos or meaning in

622
00:30:03,610 --> 00:29:58,020
noise so things like listening panels

623
00:30:06,500 --> 00:30:03,620
and even speech recognition software or

624
00:30:10,159 --> 00:30:06,510
other times of techniques tend to fail

625
00:30:14,270 --> 00:30:10,169
at this so at this point as far as I

626
00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:14,280
know there's no sound scientific

627
00:30:20,650 --> 00:30:17,370
methodological way to objectively

628
00:30:23,450 --> 00:30:20,660
determine the content of an EVP message

629
00:30:25,250 --> 00:30:23,460
okay so a lot of it is subjective right

630
00:30:27,530 --> 00:30:25,260
what does it mean to the person who

631
00:30:29,180 --> 00:30:27,540
received the message then the next thing

632
00:30:31,669 --> 00:30:29,190
we look at so the next thing that people

633
00:30:34,100 --> 00:30:31,679
try to do is try to determine the source

634
00:30:37,190 --> 00:30:34,110
right where did it come from was it

635
00:30:40,310 --> 00:30:37,200
actually from a discarded or a deceased

636
00:30:41,870 --> 00:30:40,320
person was it from an alien was it from

637
00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:41,880
some other was it from a spirit guide

638
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:44,490
those kinds of things and that becomes

639
00:30:51,110 --> 00:30:47,010
even more difficult and so that's where

640
00:30:52,940 --> 00:30:51,120
these sort of leaps in in in process

641
00:30:54,860 --> 00:30:52,950
sort of come in because what we've

642
00:30:57,470 --> 00:30:54,870
learned from mediumship research and

643
00:31:01,520 --> 00:30:57,480
other things is that you can't determine

644
00:31:04,700 --> 00:31:01,530
the source of a message yeah based on

645
00:31:09,409 --> 00:31:04,710
its content know that that's really

646
00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:09,419
clear because just going over for a

647
00:31:13,530 --> 00:31:10,930
moment too

648
00:31:17,250 --> 00:31:13,540
the alien things things having to do

649
00:31:19,860 --> 00:31:17,260
with others we really don't have any

650
00:31:23,010 --> 00:31:19,870
idea if someone feels that they're

651
00:31:26,910 --> 00:31:23,020
channeling mother Mary that it isn't

652
00:31:30,510 --> 00:31:26,920
some non-physical entity sharing space

653
00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:30,520
with us or if it's you know Mork from

654
00:31:35,100 --> 00:31:32,890
Zork it could be an alien lying to you

655
00:31:38,549 --> 00:31:35,110
telling you that your mother Mary and is

656
00:31:43,590 --> 00:31:38,559
really there's no objective way to to

657
00:31:46,980 --> 00:31:43,600
determine that whether it be in EVP or

658
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:46,990
whether it be in medium communication

659
00:31:52,110 --> 00:31:49,210
for that for that matter but it's just a

660
00:31:55,140 --> 00:31:52,120
matter if you get good info or if you

661
00:31:58,770 --> 00:31:55,150
don't get good info right exactly yeah

662
00:32:00,930 --> 00:31:58,780
is what's being said verifiable and if

663
00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:00,940
it's not which is often my experience

664
00:32:08,190 --> 00:32:04,530
with EVP content is that it's not often

665
00:32:10,799 --> 00:32:08,200
veridical information right it's often a

666
00:32:12,900 --> 00:32:10,809
message of some kind right which isn't

667
00:32:16,290 --> 00:32:12,910
like you're wearing a blue shirt it's

668
00:32:18,770 --> 00:32:16,300
like I'm scared or hello or get out or

669
00:32:21,780 --> 00:32:18,780
whatever right it's things like that so

670
00:32:26,250 --> 00:32:21,790
really then the the interesting bit for

671
00:32:28,169 --> 00:32:26,260
me is this fifth step which is assessing

672
00:32:31,919 --> 00:32:28,179
the impact of the communication on the

673
00:32:33,870 --> 00:32:31,929
person who received it right so how does

674
00:32:36,810 --> 00:32:33,880
that communication make those that

675
00:32:38,610 --> 00:32:36,820
person feel is it healing is it helpful

676
00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:38,620
is it frightening is it interesting is

677
00:32:45,690 --> 00:32:43,210
it so so that's kind of a process and

678
00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:45,700
framework that I use as we move as I

679
00:32:52,470 --> 00:32:48,850
look at EVP as I design EVP experiments

680
00:32:54,390 --> 00:32:52,480
or eitc experiments and so on so so

681
00:32:57,450 --> 00:32:54,400
let's talk specifically about your

682
00:33:03,240 --> 00:32:57,460
sample so first off it was a spontaneous

683
00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:03,250
sample yes and since there was no

684
00:33:07,980 --> 00:33:05,890
controls in place it's I think it's very

685
00:33:10,770 --> 00:33:07,990
difficult to determine whether or not

686
00:33:12,900 --> 00:33:10,780
it's truly a paranormal sample it's

687
00:33:15,570 --> 00:33:12,910
certainly an unexpected sample there are

688
00:33:18,710 --> 00:33:15,580
some controls if I could just interrupt

689
00:33:22,370 --> 00:33:18,720
a moment and say that the three of us

690
00:33:24,540 --> 00:33:22,380
are engineer Kate Valentine and myself

691
00:33:27,660 --> 00:33:24,550
we're all in a room two

692
00:33:30,540 --> 00:33:27,670
together doing the show and though and

693
00:33:33,690 --> 00:33:30,550
Abu Tom Butler was not in the room he

694
00:33:36,140 --> 00:33:33,700
was gone from the from the event and his

695
00:33:39,330 --> 00:33:36,150
channel was completely turned off and

696
00:33:42,690 --> 00:33:39,340
being in the room together the control

697
00:33:45,210 --> 00:33:42,700
was that we all had mutual surprised at

698
00:33:49,290 --> 00:33:45,220
what had occurred and we could see each

699
00:33:53,700 --> 00:33:49,300
other and that the sound only came

700
00:33:55,350 --> 00:33:53,710
through on Kate's feed it wasn't since

701
00:33:57,450 --> 00:33:55,360
we're all in the room together at close

702
00:34:00,030 --> 00:33:57,460
quarters not not intimately close

703
00:34:03,090 --> 00:34:00,040
quarters but you know a few feet apart

704
00:34:06,150 --> 00:34:03,100
it didn't come it didn't come up on any

705
00:34:08,820 --> 00:34:06,160
of our other feeds on on the other

706
00:34:10,590 --> 00:34:08,830
channels it was strictly on Kate's

707
00:34:13,770 --> 00:34:10,600
Channel and the only way it could be

708
00:34:17,190 --> 00:34:13,780
heard was not in the room not on the

709
00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:17,200
other channels just on Kate's so that's

710
00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:18,970
the control there now that may not be

711
00:34:25,110 --> 00:34:22,210
the control you were looking for and it

712
00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:25,120
didn't have any particular meaning to us

713
00:34:32,190 --> 00:34:28,810
nor a terrible emotional impact except

714
00:34:34,409 --> 00:34:32,200
to our dear to our dear engineer who

715
00:34:38,550 --> 00:34:34,419
couldn't figure out how the ghost got in

716
00:34:40,770 --> 00:34:38,560
the machine so to speak right yeah yeah

717
00:34:43,710 --> 00:34:40,780
you're absolutely correct right so so we

718
00:34:47,300 --> 00:34:43,720
can probably rule out any sort of

719
00:34:50,340 --> 00:34:47,310
specific vocalization from a person

720
00:34:53,430 --> 00:34:50,350
Absalom but you know even as I'm talking

721
00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:53,440
to you now over Skype right we're using

722
00:34:58,530 --> 00:34:55,810
this third-party system you're breaking

723
00:35:00,210 --> 00:34:58,540
up I'm hearing a slight echo there you

724
00:35:02,190 --> 00:35:00,220
know so these communication channels

725
00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:02,200
these electronic communication channels

726
00:35:06,510 --> 00:35:04,690
are not perfect and flawless by any

727
00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:06,520
stretch of the imagination

728
00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:09,610
so we need to open up the door to the

729
00:35:16,230 --> 00:35:13,090
possibility that there was some anomaly

730
00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:16,240
taking place there's some explainable

731
00:35:21,390 --> 00:35:18,370
anomaly but what's actually more

732
00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:21,400
interesting to me isn't the sound or how

733
00:35:27,570 --> 00:35:24,610
the sound was created but the timing

734
00:35:30,270 --> 00:35:27,580
exactly exactly right that's really

735
00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:30,280
interesting right so you know you just

736
00:35:34,710 --> 00:35:32,410
had huh yeah I'm assuming that this

737
00:35:37,050 --> 00:35:34,720
these kinds of anomalies don't pop up in

738
00:35:37,820 --> 00:35:37,060
your other interviews no no not at all

739
00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:37,830
okay so

740
00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:39,210
but here you go you're talking to Tom

741
00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:41,490
Butler you know you're talking about EVP

742
00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:44,010
and now you're quiet for a second and

743
00:35:48,890 --> 00:35:45,930
that's like the perfect moment for

744
00:35:51,110 --> 00:35:48,900
something to go awry right so that's I

745
00:35:53,630 --> 00:35:51,120
mean it's really interesting it's a cool

746
00:35:56,150 --> 00:35:53,640
it's a cool story right it's a it's a

747
00:35:58,010 --> 00:35:56,160
cool but empirically right looking

748
00:36:01,460 --> 00:35:58,020
through the lens of it looking through

749
00:36:02,780 --> 00:36:01,470
the empirical lens it's very difficult

750
00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:02,790
to go oh yes

751
00:36:09,190 --> 00:36:06,090
that was clearly a paranormal event that

752
00:36:12,700 --> 00:36:09,200
was clearly the result of some external

753
00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:12,710
influence whether it was operator psy or

754
00:36:19,340 --> 00:36:16,170
PK or some discarnate entity like we

755
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:19,350
can't I can't in good conscience make

756
00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:22,410
those kinds of leaps no of course but I

757
00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:25,770
can say that's cool please let me know

758
00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:28,050
if that happens again keep an eye out

759
00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:30,210
for it right that's really interesting

760
00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:33,090
so like so here's an example we ran a

761
00:36:41,060 --> 00:36:36,690
study and we we published the poster at

762
00:36:43,130 --> 00:36:41,070
a conference and it was kind of fun what

763
00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:43,140
we were looking at so a lot of people

764
00:36:50,150 --> 00:36:44,970
take photographs and they have orbs in

765
00:36:53,210 --> 00:36:50,160
them right so so these sort of density

766
00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:53,220
spots or anomalies right so um and it's

767
00:36:58,670 --> 00:36:55,410
been pretty well established that those

768
00:37:01,850 --> 00:36:58,680
are not photographs of ghosts or spirits

769
00:37:04,670 --> 00:37:01,860
right there the results of those

770
00:37:07,190 --> 00:37:04,680
anomalies are are dust and reflection

771
00:37:09,340 --> 00:37:07,200
and camera errors and they're easily

772
00:37:14,720 --> 00:37:09,350
repeatable and those kinds of things we

773
00:37:16,550 --> 00:37:14,730
can be yeah it can certainly be so but

774
00:37:18,110 --> 00:37:16,560
what's really interesting to me is as I

775
00:37:21,050 --> 00:37:18,120
started to talk to people about their

776
00:37:23,690 --> 00:37:21,060
photographic experiences I was like why

777
00:37:26,270 --> 00:37:23,700
did you take a photo at that time at

778
00:37:29,810 --> 00:37:26,280
that place and a lot of people said oh

779
00:37:31,490 --> 00:37:29,820
well I felt compelled to do it I don't

780
00:37:33,710 --> 00:37:31,500
know I just needed to take a picture

781
00:37:35,990 --> 00:37:33,720
there and sometimes some of our mediums

782
00:37:37,850 --> 00:37:36,000
have even said oh if you take a picture

783
00:37:41,150 --> 00:37:37,860
of this thing at this time at this place

784
00:37:43,190 --> 00:37:41,160
you're discarnate will make it make him

785
00:37:44,930 --> 00:37:43,200
or herself known to you and people will

786
00:37:48,110 --> 00:37:44,940
do that and there will be some sort of

787
00:37:51,510 --> 00:37:48,120
photographic anomalies yes right so

788
00:37:55,830 --> 00:37:51,520
that's me is super interesting right so

789
00:37:58,190 --> 00:37:55,840
so we may not be photographing ghosts

790
00:38:00,360 --> 00:37:58,200
right but we may be photographing

791
00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:00,370
physical phenomena which is being

792
00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:02,010
created through some sort of

793
00:38:10,290 --> 00:38:04,450
psychokinetic effect or precognitive

794
00:38:12,660 --> 00:38:10,300
effect or precognitive event that's

795
00:38:15,510 --> 00:38:12,670
inspiring or instructing people to take

796
00:38:18,060 --> 00:38:15,520
to tell people to take photographs at a

797
00:38:21,390 --> 00:38:18,070
specific place at a specific time yeah

798
00:38:25,530 --> 00:38:21,400
so sort so to test this idea we set up a

799
00:38:29,430 --> 00:38:25,540
bunch of lasers and we invited

800
00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:29,440
discarnates to move dust in a in a in a

801
00:38:36,240 --> 00:38:33,370
home area in a house to move to move

802
00:38:39,450 --> 00:38:36,250
around and push dust in front of the

803
00:38:43,070 --> 00:38:39,460
lasers at specific times and it was

804
00:38:44,970 --> 00:38:43,080
randomized counterbalanced controlled

805
00:38:46,380 --> 00:38:44,980
thing and I don't remember how many

806
00:38:47,850 --> 00:38:46,390
sessions we ran off the top of my head

807
00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:47,860
but a bunch of them and then we would

808
00:38:52,770 --> 00:38:50,410
photograph the lasers and so we were

809
00:38:54,420 --> 00:38:52,780
able to capture all the dusts that

810
00:38:56,940 --> 00:38:54,430
appeared in the laser and then we used

811
00:39:00,360 --> 00:38:56,950
special software to quantify the amount

812
00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:00,370
of a material dust material that was in

813
00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:02,530
every photograph for each session and

814
00:39:09,330 --> 00:39:05,890
then we compared controls to active

815
00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:09,340
sessions and what we found was that

816
00:39:14,490 --> 00:39:11,050
there was a statistical difference

817
00:39:16,620 --> 00:39:14,500
between the control sessions and the

818
00:39:18,500 --> 00:39:16,630
active sessions but it was in the

819
00:39:22,620 --> 00:39:18,510
opposite direction the wrong direction

820
00:39:25,650 --> 00:39:22,630
yeah there was more dust in the controls

821
00:39:29,610 --> 00:39:25,660
than there was then that then there were

822
00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:29,620
in the noise for any that in than in the

823
00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:31,810
active sessions so when we asked the

824
00:39:36,890 --> 00:39:34,450
discarnates to move dust around they

825
00:39:40,020 --> 00:39:36,900
moved it but they moved it out of a beam

826
00:39:41,610 --> 00:39:40,030
ha so the beam target may have been too

827
00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:41,620
small or there could have been a bunch

828
00:39:45,330 --> 00:39:44,170
of reasons for that but so there's that

829
00:39:47,790 --> 00:39:45,340
kind of thing which was really

830
00:39:49,740 --> 00:39:47,800
interesting and something I really want

831
00:39:52,860 --> 00:39:49,750
to get back to replicating someday when

832
00:39:55,410 --> 00:39:52,870
we have time and funding and then I ran

833
00:40:02,130 --> 00:39:55,420
another experiment where I had a we're

834
00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:02,140
at a haunted hotel and I put people

835
00:40:05,990 --> 00:40:04,450
investigators of ghost hunters

836
00:40:10,760 --> 00:40:06,000
in different locations in the

837
00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:10,770
tell where anomalies had been reported

838
00:40:15,680 --> 00:40:13,650
which I'll mark which I don't want to

839
00:40:20,150 --> 00:40:15,690
say okay I just wondered because we've

840
00:40:22,310 --> 00:40:20,160
had a lot of people talk about the del

841
00:40:25,310 --> 00:40:22,320
Coronado hotel in Southern California

842
00:40:29,570 --> 00:40:25,320
both one of our listeners who had an

843
00:40:35,050 --> 00:40:29,580
amazing experience with a television

844
00:40:39,860 --> 00:40:35,060
which went on by itself and displayed a

845
00:40:42,500 --> 00:40:39,870
person who probably was deceased and

846
00:40:44,930 --> 00:40:42,510
perhaps murdered in the hotel and then a

847
00:40:50,740 --> 00:40:44,940
few sessions ago we had pressed indented

848
00:40:53,180 --> 00:40:50,750
on and who is a you know a paranormal

849
00:40:57,020 --> 00:40:53,190
not investigators so much as a

850
00:40:59,260 --> 00:40:57,030
chronicler of mostly UFO experiences but

851
00:41:01,940 --> 00:40:59,270
he's gone into other areas as well and

852
00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:01,950
you know that's quite a nice job of just

853
00:41:08,270 --> 00:41:03,690
chronicling what people say which is

854
00:41:11,210 --> 00:41:08,280
also a valuable a valuable skill and so

855
00:41:13,160 --> 00:41:11,220
it was all these things happened at the

856
00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:13,170
del Coronado so that's why I asked which

857
00:41:17,300 --> 00:41:15,330
one but you don't have to say yeah now

858
00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:17,310
I'm familiar with the del Coronado and

859
00:41:25,430 --> 00:41:21,210
it has a great history but no this was a

860
00:41:27,470 --> 00:41:25,440
hotel in Arizona and so I had all these

861
00:41:29,930 --> 00:41:27,480
people spread around and their job was

862
00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:29,940
to take photographs whenever they felt

863
00:41:36,110 --> 00:41:33,450
inspired and they did and then we had

864
00:41:38,420 --> 00:41:36,120
them take a series of pre-selected

865
00:41:40,130 --> 00:41:38,430
control photographs where they were told

866
00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:40,140
to take a specific photograph at a

867
00:41:44,540 --> 00:41:42,690
specific time in a specific location and

868
00:41:46,430 --> 00:41:44,550
we compared those two groups of photos

869
00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:46,440
and sure enough there were statistically

870
00:41:50,570 --> 00:41:49,050
more anomalies and the inspired

871
00:41:53,810 --> 00:41:50,580
photographs than in the control

872
00:41:58,670 --> 00:41:53,820
photographs so so there's something

873
00:42:01,130 --> 00:41:58,680
about feeling there there's there's some

874
00:42:03,160 --> 00:42:01,140
connection there between a feeling like

875
00:42:05,990 --> 00:42:03,170
you need your internal feeling

876
00:42:07,340 --> 00:42:06,000
motivating you to take a picture and

877
00:42:09,700 --> 00:42:07,350
again you might not be taking a picture

878
00:42:12,260 --> 00:42:09,710
of a ghost but maybe the ghost is like

879
00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:12,270
giving you a hint that now's a good time

880
00:42:19,020 --> 00:42:15,690
- yes - take the picture so yeah so it's

881
00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:19,030
so those kinds of things so I love these

882
00:42:25,140 --> 00:42:21,370
you know the synchronicities that happen

883
00:42:26,490 --> 00:42:25,150
with these sort of anomalous events may

884
00:42:30,090 --> 00:42:26,500
I make a suggestion

885
00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:30,100
yeah go ahead in my experience I've

886
00:42:37,110 --> 00:42:32,770
spent a lot of time traveling to sacred

887
00:42:41,430 --> 00:42:37,120
sites and I found that you know I'm an

888
00:42:43,770 --> 00:42:41,440
avid photo taker just socially and

889
00:42:48,890 --> 00:42:43,780
otherwise but when I would go to these

890
00:42:53,010 --> 00:42:48,900
sacred sites mostly stone circles in

891
00:42:57,440 --> 00:42:53,020
Great Britain and Ireland I found that

892
00:43:01,590 --> 00:42:57,450
there were many more light anomalies

893
00:43:06,720 --> 00:43:01,600
occurring not necessarily or the typical

894
00:43:09,330 --> 00:43:06,730
dust mote or water vapor orbs but these

895
00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:09,340
light anomalies and then I found that it

896
00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:14,890
also occurred when I was doing a swim

897
00:43:21,090 --> 00:43:18,850
with the dolphins in the Caribbean near

898
00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:21,100
the quote-unquote broom would Bermuda

899
00:43:25,230 --> 00:43:22,930
Triangle I don't know that the Bermuda

900
00:43:28,830 --> 00:43:25,240
Triangle had anything to do with it but

901
00:43:32,610 --> 00:43:28,840
so my suggestion would just be to maybe

902
00:43:35,700 --> 00:43:32,620
check out these energy centers of from

903
00:43:39,420 --> 00:43:35,710
from past times these stone circles and

904
00:43:41,310 --> 00:43:39,430
other dolmens etc yeah that would be

905
00:43:43,530 --> 00:43:41,320
wonderful I'd love to do that that would

906
00:43:46,860 --> 00:43:43,540
be great I will have to try to get

907
00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:46,870
funding for that okay you heard it here

908
00:43:53,730 --> 00:43:49,930
funders yes mark some funding too maybe

909
00:43:55,500 --> 00:43:53,740
maybe maybe we can all travel to Great

910
00:43:59,790 --> 00:43:55,510
Britain and take some photos together

911
00:44:03,270 --> 00:43:59,800
I'll volunteer to participate you could

912
00:44:03,900 --> 00:44:03,280
guide the expedition yeah that would be

913
00:44:06,270 --> 00:44:03,910
great

914
00:44:08,790 --> 00:44:06,280
very cool so how did those photographs

915
00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:08,800
make you feel like when you saw those

916
00:44:15,090 --> 00:44:10,930
anomalies like what was your experience

917
00:44:19,620 --> 00:44:15,100
in seeing them well when I was a I think

918
00:44:22,890 --> 00:44:19,630
a lot of them came in a trip to Scotland

919
00:44:25,050 --> 00:44:22,900
I did have some anomalies on photos from

920
00:44:28,890 --> 00:44:25,060
England and Ireland but when I was in

921
00:44:32,140 --> 00:44:28,900
Scotland and I was intensively going to

922
00:44:34,750 --> 00:44:32,150
one stone circle after the other one

923
00:44:38,620 --> 00:44:34,760
Olman after the other the old hill Oh

924
00:44:42,190 --> 00:44:38,630
stains I visited and up in the Orkney

925
00:44:45,849 --> 00:44:42,200
Islands etc I was kind of on a mission

926
00:44:47,980 --> 00:44:45,859
and so it made me feel good that I was

927
00:44:51,339 --> 00:44:47,990
kind of connecting with my mission I

928
00:44:54,730 --> 00:44:51,349
felt in and and when I say drawing down

929
00:44:57,089 --> 00:44:54,740
power that's really kind of exaggerating

930
00:44:59,829 --> 00:44:57,099
the the situation a little bit but

931
00:45:02,680 --> 00:44:59,839
getting into the feeling of the stone

932
00:45:06,279 --> 00:45:02,690
circle is the best way I can explain it

933
00:45:09,660 --> 00:45:06,289
it kind of made me feel like a you know

934
00:45:11,829 --> 00:45:09,670
mission accomplished but I didn't have

935
00:45:13,930 --> 00:45:11,839
what I didn't have it wasn't

936
00:45:16,210 --> 00:45:13,940
informational to me in any way I didn't

937
00:45:21,130 --> 00:45:16,220
get information from it however when I

938
00:45:25,089 --> 00:45:21,140
was in I was on the dolphin swim with on

939
00:45:27,190 --> 00:45:25,099
a a one of those by those boats called

940
00:45:28,599 --> 00:45:27,200
that our pontoon boat said that I can't

941
00:45:32,529 --> 00:45:28,609
think of the word for the pontoon boat

942
00:45:35,440 --> 00:45:32,539
but we were out there in the in the

943
00:45:38,680 --> 00:45:35,450
Caribbean in the Bermuda Triangle and we

944
00:45:43,390 --> 00:45:38,690
would get off the boat and jump in when

945
00:45:46,240 --> 00:45:43,400
we spotted a school of dolphins and the

946
00:45:50,410 --> 00:45:46,250
idea of getting beamed by the dolphins

947
00:45:53,710 --> 00:45:50,420
was an amazing experience but the visual

948
00:45:57,609 --> 00:45:53,720
part of the anomalies I think I was lost

949
00:46:00,309 --> 00:45:57,619
at sea for a matter of minutes when the

950
00:46:02,500 --> 00:46:00,319
boat left without me and the visual

951
00:46:04,900 --> 00:46:02,510
phenomena I believe happened right after

952
00:46:07,029 --> 00:46:04,910
that and that had more emotional meaning

953
00:46:11,039 --> 00:46:07,039
to me that I actually was able to get

954
00:46:13,930 --> 00:46:11,049
back on the boat and wasn't lost at sea

955
00:46:16,750 --> 00:46:13,940
so that had a big emotional response

956
00:46:19,089 --> 00:46:16,760
from me sort of a cool that's really

957
00:46:20,950 --> 00:46:19,099
interesting yet you bring up you bring

958
00:46:23,769 --> 00:46:20,960
up dolphins I'm having a lot of weird

959
00:46:28,480 --> 00:46:23,779
synchronicities around dolphins last few

960
00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:28,490
days so bits that's sort of sort of

961
00:46:33,160 --> 00:46:30,890
serendipity yes that you've brought that

962
00:46:37,779 --> 00:46:33,170
up in this conversation well I will

963
00:46:40,620 --> 00:46:37,789
further economic up dolphins just to

964
00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:40,630
give a plug to the Monroe Institute's

965
00:46:56,140 --> 00:46:43,010
dolphin

966
00:46:58,720 --> 00:46:56,150
which helps people to heal you meditate

967
00:47:01,870 --> 00:46:58,730
on dolphins and try to bring healing to

968
00:47:04,900 --> 00:47:01,880
people who are ill and I and I think

969
00:47:07,930 --> 00:47:04,910
this it's just fabulous it's a fabulous

970
00:47:10,690 --> 00:47:07,940
program for healing people who want to

971
00:47:13,750 --> 00:47:10,700
be healed and so dolphins are mentioned

972
00:47:15,970 --> 00:47:13,760
there as well that's awesome so that's

973
00:47:20,140 --> 00:47:15,980
the Monroe Institute yes yes and I'm a

974
00:47:24,760 --> 00:47:20,150
member of that the dolphin Association

975
00:47:28,180 --> 00:47:24,770
there well that's great so cool yeah

976
00:47:31,960 --> 00:47:28,190
so what else so we're going back to your

977
00:47:36,880 --> 00:47:31,970
and what you're doing today and now I

978
00:47:39,550 --> 00:47:36,890
understand from dr. by shell that just

979
00:47:43,900 --> 00:47:39,560
to confuse matters completely on your

980
00:47:48,040 --> 00:47:43,910
part you are also working with another

981
00:47:50,410 --> 00:47:48,050
prominent parapsychologist dr. Julia

982
00:47:52,570 --> 00:47:50,420
Morse bridge of the Moores Bridge

983
00:47:57,370 --> 00:47:52,580
Institute now couldn't you guys come up

984
00:48:00,099 --> 00:47:57,380
with I know it's ridiculous the Mossberg

985
00:48:01,900 --> 00:48:00,109
Institute the wind bridge Institute you

986
00:48:04,540 --> 00:48:01,910
know it's funny I met when we were

987
00:48:06,700 --> 00:48:04,550
sitting down with Julia I know years ago

988
00:48:08,020 --> 00:48:06,710
and we're at some conference somewhere

989
00:48:09,730 --> 00:48:08,030
and I was like really

990
00:48:15,880 --> 00:48:09,740
Moss bridge Institute you're like oh

991
00:48:18,820 --> 00:48:15,890
yeah yeah and Julie and Julia if that

992
00:48:21,160 --> 00:48:18,830
doesn't confuse yeah yeah yeah yeah and

993
00:48:22,960 --> 00:48:21,170
you know so yeah there's a number of

994
00:48:26,560 --> 00:48:22,970
things that are going on so first I want

995
00:48:30,160 --> 00:48:26,570
to say that so just to wrap up about the

996
00:48:33,040 --> 00:48:30,170
Institute and the center and things like

997
00:48:35,560 --> 00:48:33,050
that so as we have mentioned so the the

998
00:48:37,540 --> 00:48:35,570
Institute kind of rolled a law and doing

999
00:48:43,120 --> 00:48:37,550
its mediumship and general

1000
00:48:46,540 --> 00:48:43,130
parapsychology research until 2016 when

1001
00:48:48,400 --> 00:48:46,550
we said wow we are taking on way too

1002
00:48:52,090 --> 00:48:48,410
much stuff and we're having a really

1003
00:48:53,230 --> 00:48:52,100
hard time serving our audiences because

1004
00:48:54,940 --> 00:48:53,240
there were all these people that were

1005
00:48:56,930 --> 00:48:54,950
like hey we want to know about

1006
00:48:57,800 --> 00:48:56,940
mediumship and afterlife research and

1007
00:48:59,059 --> 00:48:57,810
there were all these other people that

1008
00:49:00,680 --> 00:48:59,069
were like no we want to know about

1009
00:49:01,579 --> 00:49:00,690
precognition telepathy and clairvoyance

1010
00:49:03,290 --> 00:49:01,589
and

1011
00:49:05,569 --> 00:49:03,300
those kinds of things so every time I'd

1012
00:49:08,990 --> 00:49:05,579
send out an email half the people would

1013
00:49:10,730 --> 00:49:09,000
be mad because I was either not covering

1014
00:49:13,010 --> 00:49:10,740
enough of one topic or too much of

1015
00:49:15,050 --> 00:49:13,020
another or that kind of thing so we were

1016
00:49:16,550 --> 00:49:15,060
really realizing that it was we were

1017
00:49:20,059 --> 00:49:16,560
serving these different audiences and we

1018
00:49:20,540 --> 00:49:20,069
were having a hard time he's treating

1019
00:49:24,770 --> 00:49:20,550
them

1020
00:49:29,390 --> 00:49:24,780
there was also sort of a division in the

1021
00:49:33,050 --> 00:49:29,400
research as well and so in 2017 we

1022
00:49:38,420 --> 00:49:33,060
decided to split off the after life

1023
00:49:41,870 --> 00:49:38,430
research and form a new non-profit 501 C

1024
00:49:46,520 --> 00:49:41,880
3 charity called the wind bridge

1025
00:49:50,630 --> 00:49:46,530
Research Center and that is the home now

1026
00:49:53,359 --> 00:49:50,640
of all of our mediumship and afterlife

1027
00:49:59,319 --> 00:49:53,369
and ITC research where the wind bridge

1028
00:50:06,260 --> 00:50:02,870
mindfulness and intuition and intention

1029
00:50:09,530 --> 00:50:06,270
research and so there's actually two

1030
00:50:12,800 --> 00:50:09,540
separate web sites now there's the wind

1031
00:50:14,990 --> 00:50:12,810
bridge Institute calm which is the home

1032
00:50:17,930 --> 00:50:15,000
of the wind bridge Institute LLC and

1033
00:50:20,540 --> 00:50:17,940
there's wind bridge org which is the

1034
00:50:23,780 --> 00:50:20,550
home of the wind bridge Research Center

1035
00:50:27,410 --> 00:50:23,790
which studies Dying death and what comes

1036
00:50:31,880 --> 00:50:27,420
next so there's that a whole bit of

1037
00:50:34,160 --> 00:50:31,890
confusion as well so you know make it

1038
00:50:35,750 --> 00:50:34,170
easy for us out here oh we don't I'm

1039
00:50:37,280 --> 00:50:35,760
sorry you know we wanted to keep the

1040
00:50:40,190 --> 00:50:37,290
name Wynn bridge and we had a lot of

1041
00:50:42,440 --> 00:50:40,200
stuff so Julie is still involved in the

1042
00:50:44,540 --> 00:50:42,450
Institute and I'm still involved in the

1043
00:50:46,309 --> 00:50:44,550
center I'm actually the executive

1044
00:50:49,880 --> 00:50:46,319
director of the center and I'm the

1045
00:50:53,599 --> 00:50:49,890
managing editor of our free open access

1046
00:50:56,390 --> 00:50:53,609
online a peer-reviewed journal called

1047
00:50:58,760 --> 00:50:56,400
threshold so that's being published

1048
00:51:01,280 --> 00:50:58,770
through the center and then I'm also

1049
00:51:05,510 --> 00:51:01,290
conducting other kinds of research and

1050
00:51:08,900 --> 00:51:05,520
developing apps and books and other

1051
00:51:10,400 --> 00:51:08,910
tools under the Institute which is a

1052
00:51:12,140 --> 00:51:10,410
for-profit and

1053
00:51:13,910 --> 00:51:12,150
and never and we do consulting work and

1054
00:51:16,880 --> 00:51:13,920
things like that so I'm all about

1055
00:51:20,030 --> 00:51:16,890
intention I work with intention nearly

1056
00:51:22,940 --> 00:51:20,040
every day on some level often with my

1057
00:51:26,360 --> 00:51:22,950
clients often separately so I'm most

1058
00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:26,370
interested in your work having to do

1059
00:51:31,630 --> 00:51:29,010
with intention so do you want to give us

1060
00:51:36,680 --> 00:51:31,640
a little a little rundown about that

1061
00:51:38,390 --> 00:51:36,690
sure so yeah this is uh this is this is

1062
00:51:40,160 --> 00:51:38,400
goes down the rabbit hole pretty quickly

1063
00:51:46,130 --> 00:51:40,170
and it's pretty speculative but I love

1064
00:51:49,340 --> 00:51:46,140
it and it's so a few years ago I started

1065
00:51:54,290 --> 00:51:49,350
working in ITC actually and other sorts

1066
00:51:56,510 --> 00:51:54,300
of areas where I was using equipment to

1067
00:51:59,060 --> 00:51:56,520
monitor different things so I was using

1068
00:52:00,920 --> 00:51:59,070
random event generators to see if

1069
00:52:03,140 --> 00:52:00,930
intention would affect the output of

1070
00:52:05,960 --> 00:52:03,150
random event generators I was using

1071
00:52:09,110 --> 00:52:05,970
environmental monitors to see if invited

1072
00:52:11,090 --> 00:52:09,120
discarnates or operator intention could

1073
00:52:12,380 --> 00:52:11,100
change the output of these devices and

1074
00:52:14,720 --> 00:52:12,390
so I'm running all the normal

1075
00:52:16,220 --> 00:52:14,730
statistical tests and I'm getting some

1076
00:52:18,680 --> 00:52:16,230
results and I'm not getting some results

1077
00:52:19,850 --> 00:52:18,690
and and I kind of have this idea there's

1078
00:52:21,830 --> 00:52:19,860
a there's a very standard technique

1079
00:52:23,990 --> 00:52:21,840
called visualization right data

1080
00:52:25,670 --> 00:52:24,000
visualization and so it's when you take

1081
00:52:27,710 --> 00:52:25,680
your data and you turn it into a picture

1082
00:52:29,660 --> 00:52:27,720
of some kind and a lot of people turn

1083
00:52:32,270 --> 00:52:29,670
that stuff into a graph or a bar chart

1084
00:52:34,160 --> 00:52:32,280
and I was like well you know is there

1085
00:52:36,380 --> 00:52:34,170
some other way that we might be able to

1086
00:52:38,930 --> 00:52:36,390
look at this dynamic data that changes

1087
00:52:43,970 --> 00:52:38,940
over time so I started to animate it and

1088
00:52:46,520 --> 00:52:43,980
turn it into 3d shapes and sort of

1089
00:52:49,150 --> 00:52:46,530
colorize it in different ways and the

1090
00:52:53,270 --> 00:52:49,160
images were really interesting

1091
00:52:55,370 --> 00:52:53,280
aesthetically and so to sort of give

1092
00:52:57,890 --> 00:52:55,380
people an idea of what what the heck I'm

1093
00:53:00,080 --> 00:52:57,900
talking about here so I did write a book

1094
00:53:04,040 --> 00:53:00,090
it's called visualizing intention art

1095
00:53:07,580 --> 00:53:04,050
informed by science and if you go to

1096
00:53:09,950 --> 00:53:07,590
wind bridge Institute dot-com you can

1097
00:53:13,130 --> 00:53:09,960
there's a there's a link on the homepage

1098
00:53:15,170 --> 00:53:13,140
that says psy forms visualizing

1099
00:53:17,150 --> 00:53:15,180
intention and if you click on that link

1100
00:53:19,010 --> 00:53:17,160
in the very first paragraph on the next

1101
00:53:20,750 --> 00:53:19,020
on the page that it loads there's going

1102
00:53:22,990 --> 00:53:20,760
to be a line and it says you can buy the

1103
00:53:25,990 --> 00:53:23,000
book from Amazon

1104
00:53:29,410 --> 00:53:26,000
or you can download the free PDF go

1105
00:53:32,710 --> 00:53:29,420
ahead and download the free PDF the book

1106
00:53:35,440 --> 00:53:32,720
is full-color it's a hundred pages it's

1107
00:53:38,260 --> 00:53:35,450
custom printed it's ridiculously

1108
00:53:40,420 --> 00:53:38,270
expensive on Amazon it's like 40 or 50

1109
00:53:42,760 --> 00:53:40,430
bucks it's visually beautiful though I'd

1110
00:53:45,100 --> 00:53:42,770
say thank you yeah the book is gorgeous

1111
00:53:47,410 --> 00:53:45,110
and I really love what the printers did

1112
00:53:48,280 --> 00:53:47,420
with it and the layout it looks really

1113
00:53:50,500 --> 00:53:48,290
nice

1114
00:53:52,330 --> 00:53:50,510
and I'd but I don't expect everyone to

1115
00:53:55,690 --> 00:53:52,340
go out and fork up that much money for a

1116
00:53:59,320 --> 00:53:55,700
basically a little coffee table book so

1117
00:54:01,600 --> 00:53:59,330
get you know if you're into it if you

1118
00:54:03,160 --> 00:54:01,610
download the PDF you'll see the whole

1119
00:54:04,300 --> 00:54:03,170
book you can see all the pictures you

1120
00:54:10,240 --> 00:54:04,310
can get a sense of what I'm talking

1121
00:54:12,130 --> 00:54:10,250
about so we'll wait no okay sorry so or

1122
00:54:13,780 --> 00:54:12,140
and if you love it and you want a hard

1123
00:54:15,550 --> 00:54:13,790
copy you can you can purchase the book

1124
00:54:17,290 --> 00:54:15,560
and that would be lovely because you

1125
00:54:21,760 --> 00:54:17,300
know it helps pay for some of this work

1126
00:54:23,740 --> 00:54:21,770
so there you go so so I'm visualizing

1127
00:54:25,210 --> 00:54:23,750
these data and I'm like wow this is

1128
00:54:28,780 --> 00:54:25,220
really interesting this is really cool

1129
00:54:31,240 --> 00:54:28,790
and I'm showing some of the pieces up on

1130
00:54:32,920 --> 00:54:31,250
social media and I'm getting a lot of

1131
00:54:35,460 --> 00:54:32,930
really interesting feedback and people

1132
00:54:39,280 --> 00:54:35,470
like oh I kind of see your intention in

1133
00:54:42,400 --> 00:54:39,290
the picture I'm like well that's cool

1134
00:54:46,480 --> 00:54:42,410
and totally subjective but cool

1135
00:54:49,480 --> 00:54:46,490
so I ran specific sessions where I had

1136
00:54:52,390 --> 00:54:49,490
people focus on a specific intention and

1137
00:54:54,460 --> 00:54:52,400
write that intention down and then while

1138
00:54:56,980 --> 00:54:54,470
they were doing that I was wherever they

1139
00:55:00,520 --> 00:54:56,990
were around the world I was in my lab

1140
00:55:02,800 --> 00:55:00,530
here in Arizona and I ran a random event

1141
00:55:05,350 --> 00:55:02,810
generator and I put the person's name on

1142
00:55:09,160 --> 00:55:05,360
the random event generator with a sticky

1143
00:55:11,410 --> 00:55:09,170
note and and I collected data while they

1144
00:55:13,120 --> 00:55:11,420
meditated on it while they meditated on

1145
00:55:16,720 --> 00:55:13,130
their intention and then I took the data

1146
00:55:18,850 --> 00:55:16,730
and I ran it through the software and I

1147
00:55:20,860 --> 00:55:18,860
would show them the pictures and they

1148
00:55:23,650 --> 00:55:20,870
and they were also to report and

1149
00:55:25,930 --> 00:55:23,660
document any sensations or feelings or

1150
00:55:28,930 --> 00:55:25,940
thoughts lots that they had during the

1151
00:55:31,210 --> 00:55:28,940
process and I'm showing these people

1152
00:55:32,980 --> 00:55:31,220
these images and the feedback is really

1153
00:55:36,010 --> 00:55:32,990
interesting and some of those examples

1154
00:55:37,030 --> 00:55:36,020
are in the book so you can read how

1155
00:55:39,100 --> 00:55:37,040
people actually

1156
00:55:43,480 --> 00:55:39,110
felt as if they saw their intentions

1157
00:55:44,860 --> 00:55:43,490
manifested in the image and and I

1158
00:55:49,900 --> 00:55:44,870
thought well that's really interesting

1159
00:55:51,820 --> 00:55:49,910
and and so we continue to do that and

1160
00:55:55,660 --> 00:55:51,830
different a number of different ways and

1161
00:55:58,480 --> 00:55:55,670
over time the the the project sort of

1162
00:56:01,810 --> 00:55:58,490
morphed into more of an art project than

1163
00:56:03,130 --> 00:56:01,820
pure up here science project because I

1164
00:56:04,840 --> 00:56:03,140
was starting to take a number of

1165
00:56:07,990 --> 00:56:04,850
liberties with the way the data were

1166
00:56:12,670 --> 00:56:08,000
presented because if I didn't like add

1167
00:56:14,830 --> 00:56:12,680
some randomness or noise or change the

1168
00:56:16,840 --> 00:56:14,840
color schemes a little bit or search for

1169
00:56:18,970 --> 00:56:16,850
certain patterns in the data and try to

1170
00:56:22,390 --> 00:56:18,980
enhance those in certain ways so the

1171
00:56:25,030 --> 00:56:22,400
images wouldn't be as interesting so so

1172
00:56:27,370 --> 00:56:25,040
I'm hesitant to say that these are these

1173
00:56:31,480 --> 00:56:27,380
are true scientific representations of

1174
00:56:34,120 --> 00:56:31,490
the data but so there's sort of artistic

1175
00:56:36,370 --> 00:56:34,130
interpretations of the data and again as

1176
00:56:37,870 --> 00:56:36,380
I you know what's clearly has been a

1177
00:56:39,940 --> 00:56:37,880
running theme through this conversation

1178
00:56:42,100 --> 00:56:39,950
is that I'm really interested in how

1179
00:56:44,050 --> 00:56:42,110
things make people feel and what their

1180
00:56:45,880 --> 00:56:44,060
experiences are and so this seemed to be

1181
00:56:47,170 --> 00:56:45,890
really a positive thing that people were

1182
00:56:51,910 --> 00:56:47,180
having

1183
00:56:56,530 --> 00:56:51,920
I haven't okay okay I have two things to

1184
00:56:59,560 --> 00:56:56,540
speak to about your experiment and how I

1185
00:57:02,740 --> 00:56:59,570
see things in that regard and we have

1186
00:57:06,310 --> 00:57:02,750
had a couple of guests on most

1187
00:57:10,240 --> 00:57:06,320
specifically recently Laird Scranton who

1188
00:57:14,080 --> 00:57:10,250
goes around looking at pre literate

1189
00:57:18,790 --> 00:57:14,090
civilizations and symbols they use and

1190
00:57:20,920 --> 00:57:18,800
we had a young lady from Australia who

1191
00:57:25,590 --> 00:57:20,930
worked in something similar but

1192
00:57:28,390 --> 00:57:25,600
different Lin was her first name and so

1193
00:57:32,320 --> 00:57:28,400
we could look at certain symbols that

1194
00:57:35,830 --> 00:57:32,330
may have some universal meaning to

1195
00:57:37,630 --> 00:57:35,840
humans on several levels like a circle

1196
00:57:41,080 --> 00:57:37,640
with the dot inside it for instance

1197
00:57:43,180 --> 00:57:41,090
which brings me to my own work I have a

1198
00:57:45,820 --> 00:57:43,190
master's degree in fine arts as well as

1199
00:57:48,910 --> 00:57:45,830
working as a and a professional

1200
00:57:52,830 --> 00:57:48,920
intuitive and in my work

1201
00:57:56,710 --> 00:57:52,840
computer art I began to see how certain

1202
00:58:00,510 --> 00:57:56,720
colorful compositions with multiple

1203
00:58:04,390 --> 00:58:00,520
polka dots seem to make everyone happy

1204
00:58:09,760 --> 00:58:04,400
so I wanted to to throw that out there

1205
00:58:11,860 --> 00:58:09,770
just as a as a something to perhaps to

1206
00:58:14,380 --> 00:58:11,870
speak to around what you were talking

1207
00:58:16,000 --> 00:58:14,390
about yeah absolutely and I and I'm the

1208
00:58:18,310 --> 00:58:16,010
first one to say that this is very

1209
00:58:20,830 --> 00:58:18,320
subjective right so these people's

1210
00:58:22,870 --> 00:58:20,840
personal experiences are their own and

1211
00:58:24,640 --> 00:58:22,880
they're there you can project whatever

1212
00:58:26,230 --> 00:58:24,650
if someone even says that in the book

1213
00:58:28,270 --> 00:58:26,240
they're like you can see whatever you

1214
00:58:31,540 --> 00:58:28,280
want in these images what I see is

1215
00:58:33,340 --> 00:58:31,550
relevant to me because blah um and she

1216
00:58:38,020 --> 00:58:33,350
goes on to tell her story there's one

1217
00:58:40,120 --> 00:58:38,030
image in the book that actually was

1218
00:58:43,900 --> 00:58:40,130
created when someone was talking about

1219
00:58:46,360 --> 00:58:43,910
was focusing on their anxiety and it's

1220
00:58:48,190 --> 00:58:46,370
um it's a really interesting image

1221
00:58:50,770 --> 00:58:48,200
because it feels very different to me

1222
00:58:55,000 --> 00:58:50,780
than the other images and it he used it

1223
00:58:58,000 --> 00:58:55,010
as a sort of a kicking off point for his

1224
00:59:00,310 --> 00:58:58,010
own sort of in reflection about his

1225
00:59:02,950 --> 00:59:00,320
anxiety and how it fit into his

1226
00:59:07,840 --> 00:59:02,960
worldview and scheme so there's things

1227
00:59:10,480 --> 00:59:07,850
like that as well so there's so the

1228
00:59:15,040 --> 00:59:10,490
other piece of this which gets even a

1229
00:59:16,780 --> 00:59:15,050
little stranger is so a lot of my

1230
00:59:19,660 --> 00:59:16,790
friends believe it or not are actual

1231
00:59:22,270 --> 00:59:19,670
scientists and clearly most of my

1232
00:59:23,650 --> 00:59:22,280
colleagues are scientists so every time

1233
00:59:26,020 --> 00:59:23,660
I would talk about this stuff they were

1234
00:59:27,880 --> 00:59:26,030
like you dude you have to run an

1235
00:59:30,130 --> 00:59:27,890
empirical experiment you have to do this

1236
00:59:31,870 --> 00:59:30,140
under blinded conditions you have like

1237
00:59:34,000 --> 00:59:31,880
where's your data where's your data

1238
00:59:36,040 --> 00:59:34,010
where's your what you're finding and I

1239
00:59:38,950 --> 00:59:36,050
was like ah this is so difficult to do

1240
00:59:42,480 --> 00:59:38,960
in any meaningful way so a lot of people

1241
00:59:45,880 --> 00:59:42,490
were comparing it to the work of a moto

1242
00:59:49,510 --> 00:59:45,890
with his ice crystal work right right

1243
00:59:51,460 --> 00:59:49,520
that messy messy row Emoto some Japanese

1244
00:59:53,560 --> 00:59:51,470
scientist with the water crystals and

1245
00:59:56,080 --> 00:59:53,570
freezing ice with different words I'm

1246
00:59:58,900 --> 00:59:56,090
just cutting to the chase here yeah yeah

1247
01:00:01,390 --> 00:59:58,910
yeah so no absolutely so so a lot of

1248
01:00:02,740 --> 01:00:01,400
people work waiting it to that but the

1249
01:00:04,480 --> 01:00:02,750
the thing that's beautiful

1250
01:00:06,730 --> 01:00:04,490
about that work is that when it's when

1251
01:00:09,340 --> 01:00:06,740
the intention is positive the images are

1252
01:00:11,140 --> 01:00:09,350
very symmetrical and you know like like

1253
01:00:13,270 --> 01:00:11,150
you said with the polka dots human

1254
01:00:15,670 --> 01:00:13,280
brains and human beings like things that

1255
01:00:18,070 --> 01:00:15,680
are symmetrical the art that I'm

1256
01:00:21,010 --> 01:00:18,080
generating is much more subjective and

1257
01:00:23,350 --> 01:00:21,020
and it feels a bit more random so I was

1258
01:00:25,210 --> 01:00:23,360
worried that human perception might

1259
01:00:27,160 --> 01:00:25,220
prevent people from accurately

1260
01:00:28,900 --> 01:00:27,170
determining whether or not these images

1261
01:00:31,510 --> 01:00:28,910
were pretty you're not pretty year that

1262
01:00:33,070 --> 01:00:31,520
kinds of things so I removed the human

1263
01:00:36,010 --> 01:00:33,080
participant in a couple of different

1264
01:00:38,260 --> 01:00:36,020
studies one of these is in the book but

1265
01:00:41,710 --> 01:00:38,270
I actually compared the color spectrums

1266
01:00:43,660 --> 01:00:41,720
of two datasets one were the intention

1267
01:00:46,000 --> 01:00:43,670
or the focus of the intention was on a

1268
01:00:48,970 --> 01:00:46,010
feeling of love and the other was on the

1269
01:00:51,760 --> 01:00:48,980
feeling of hate and there is a clear

1270
01:00:53,980 --> 01:00:51,770
difference in the color spectrum of

1271
01:00:56,110 --> 01:00:53,990
these two datasets Wow and you can

1272
01:00:59,700 --> 01:00:56,120
that's statistically significant what

1273
01:01:04,570 --> 01:00:59,710
difference that is that is just really

1274
01:01:06,910 --> 01:01:04,580
very fascinating and the idea of like

1275
01:01:09,970 --> 01:01:06,920
blurring the line a little bit between

1276
01:01:11,740 --> 01:01:09,980
science and art I find maybe there are

1277
01:01:14,200 --> 01:01:11,750
scientists who may reject that but I

1278
01:01:16,150 --> 01:01:14,210
find it very interesting myself yeah I

1279
01:01:20,620 --> 01:01:16,160
am the first sorry so I'm the first one

1280
01:01:22,570 --> 01:01:20,630
to say weird and controversial right and

1281
01:01:26,170 --> 01:01:22,580
I I don't quite know what to make of it

1282
01:01:28,480 --> 01:01:26,180
yet as a follow-up to that experiment

1283
01:01:30,160 --> 01:01:28,490
and I presented this at the Society for

1284
01:01:33,400 --> 01:01:30,170
scientific exploration a couple of years

1285
01:01:36,190 --> 01:01:33,410
ago I got the same datasets and I made

1286
01:01:40,330 --> 01:01:36,200
them into images and I gave them to a

1287
01:01:41,920 --> 01:01:40,340
deep learning machine classifier so this

1288
01:01:43,780 --> 01:01:41,930
was a piece of software artificial

1289
01:01:46,180 --> 01:01:43,790
intelligence software that was designed

1290
01:01:48,430 --> 01:01:46,190
to extract features out of photographs

1291
01:01:51,010 --> 01:01:48,440
and it was trained using millions of

1292
01:01:54,430 --> 01:01:51,020
photographs on the internet and when I

1293
01:01:57,190 --> 01:01:54,440
gave it those two sets of images it sent

1294
01:01:59,440 --> 01:01:57,200
me back a list of features in each one

1295
01:02:02,740 --> 01:01:59,450
and what was interesting about that test

1296
01:02:05,350 --> 01:02:02,750
is that in four of the five hate images

1297
01:02:07,180 --> 01:02:05,360
there was a specific feature that wasn't

1298
01:02:09,010 --> 01:02:07,190
there were a lot of overlaps between the

1299
01:02:11,980 --> 01:02:09,020
feature between the two images in terms

1300
01:02:14,020 --> 01:02:11,990
of features but in the four or five of

1301
01:02:15,850 --> 01:02:14,030
these hate images there was a single

1302
01:02:19,390 --> 01:02:15,860
feature that didn't appear anywhere

1303
01:02:21,790 --> 01:02:19,400
and it was right

1304
01:02:24,670 --> 01:02:21,800
triangular trailer apparently there were

1305
01:02:27,040 --> 01:02:24,680
a lot more triangles and hard edges in

1306
01:02:29,980 --> 01:02:27,050
the hate images than there were in the

1307
01:02:33,700 --> 01:02:29,990
love images from that could we say that

1308
01:02:34,720 --> 01:02:33,710
it just it occurs to me that you have

1309
01:02:40,300 --> 01:02:34,730
sharper

1310
01:02:42,610 --> 01:02:40,310
triangles it might not be the actual

1311
01:02:46,330 --> 01:02:42,620
triangle but the angle that's more

1312
01:02:48,220 --> 01:02:46,340
pointed yeah absolutely it could be but

1313
01:02:50,730 --> 01:02:48,230
the prop but the issue here is that or

1314
01:02:52,540 --> 01:02:50,740
the interesting bit is that

1315
01:02:55,410 --> 01:02:52,550
statistically if you look at the raw

1316
01:02:58,230 --> 01:02:55,420
data it's exactly the same data ah

1317
01:03:01,270 --> 01:02:58,240
there's no difference statistically

1318
01:03:06,760 --> 01:03:01,280
between the love data set and the hate

1319
01:03:08,800 --> 01:03:06,770
data set I don't know what that means I

1320
01:03:12,520 --> 01:03:08,810
don't know either but it's really cool

1321
01:03:15,520 --> 01:03:12,530
my if I'm gonna speculate I'm I'm

1322
01:03:18,550 --> 01:03:15,530
playing with this idea that data sets or

1323
01:03:21,280 --> 01:03:18,560
data become a vector for intention and

1324
01:03:25,240 --> 01:03:21,290
I'm actually gonna present a poster at

1325
01:03:27,880 --> 01:03:25,250
the upcoming Society for scientific

1326
01:03:33,120 --> 01:03:27,890
exploration meeting where which is

1327
01:03:37,240 --> 01:03:33,130
happening in Las Vegas and June where I

1328
01:03:40,150 --> 01:03:37,250
used love and hate data sets to control

1329
01:03:43,390 --> 01:03:40,160
an online game and then I asked people

1330
01:03:46,180 --> 01:03:43,400
to measure their their self-reported

1331
01:03:48,600 --> 01:03:46,190
level of happiness well before playing

1332
01:03:51,130 --> 01:03:48,610
the game and after playing the game and

1333
01:03:53,350 --> 01:03:51,140
there's a statistically significant

1334
01:03:56,410 --> 01:03:53,360
difference between the level of

1335
01:03:58,780 --> 01:03:56,420
happiness which increased with people

1336
01:04:02,170 --> 01:03:58,790
that played the happy love data game

1337
01:04:06,880 --> 01:04:02,180
versus the people whose mood decreased

1338
01:04:10,150 --> 01:04:06,890
after playing the sad game and against

1339
01:04:11,620 --> 01:04:10,160
the exact same game just certain aspects

1340
01:04:13,810 --> 01:04:11,630
of the game are controlled and then

1341
01:04:16,030 --> 01:04:13,820
there was a control game where there was

1342
01:04:18,580 --> 01:04:16,040
no difference report a difference in the

1343
01:04:21,100 --> 01:04:18,590
in the pre-imposed happiness scores

1344
01:04:22,690 --> 01:04:21,110
thank you all that that's gonna be

1345
01:04:25,530 --> 01:04:22,700
available in June well very very

1346
01:04:29,329 --> 01:04:25,540
interesting I hope to see you there and

1347
01:04:31,729 --> 01:04:29,339
look at your poster and just

1348
01:04:34,279 --> 01:04:31,739
before we go we sort of like at time now

1349
01:04:38,089 --> 01:04:34,289
we we do have to say goodbye very

1350
01:04:42,109 --> 01:04:38,099
shortly but I think the one verbiage

1351
01:04:44,239 --> 01:04:42,119
that you used that our listeners may not

1352
01:04:47,569 --> 01:04:44,249
universally understand is what is a

1353
01:04:50,120 --> 01:04:47,579
poster at a an event it's not a it's not

1354
01:04:52,209 --> 01:04:50,130
a just a flat piece of paper that's more

1355
01:04:55,160 --> 01:04:52,219
than it actually is

1356
01:04:57,469 --> 01:04:55,170
what is more than but yeah at a

1357
01:04:59,539 --> 01:04:57,479
scientific conference you can be awarded

1358
01:05:01,519 --> 01:04:59,549
you can be granted either a talk where

1359
01:05:02,779 --> 01:05:01,529
you get up and you present typically

1360
01:05:04,940 --> 01:05:02,789
with a PowerPoint presentation or

1361
01:05:08,390 --> 01:05:04,950
whatever to the crowd or you're given a

1362
01:05:10,249 --> 01:05:08,400
poster session which is where some

1363
01:05:12,109 --> 01:05:10,259
topics and it's up to the jurors as to

1364
01:05:16,599 --> 01:05:12,119
how they make this decision but some

1365
01:05:19,249 --> 01:05:16,609
topics are covered by you create a large

1366
01:05:21,349 --> 01:05:19,259
bill a poster literally a poster it's

1367
01:05:23,569 --> 01:05:21,359
three or four feet by three or four feet

1368
01:05:25,279 --> 01:05:23,579
and it goes up on the wall and then a

1369
01:05:26,870 --> 01:05:25,289
bunch of people present them and it

1370
01:05:28,789 --> 01:05:26,880
outlines your methods and your

1371
01:05:31,759 --> 01:05:28,799
experiment and your data and your

1372
01:05:34,069 --> 01:05:31,769
findings and it's sort of a brief way

1373
01:05:36,799 --> 01:05:34,079
for people to walk up get a bunch of

1374
01:05:40,910 --> 01:05:36,809
information relevant to this study and

1375
01:05:42,709 --> 01:05:40,920
then then they can you questions and you

1376
01:05:44,509 --> 01:05:42,719
can interact with people one-on-one they

1377
01:05:46,789 --> 01:05:44,519
can I typically have handouts people can

1378
01:05:49,009 --> 01:05:46,799
walk away with it and follow up with me

1379
01:05:51,739 --> 01:05:49,019
later but it's a way for people out of

1380
01:05:53,719 --> 01:05:51,749
conference to get a lot more information

1381
01:05:55,759 --> 01:05:53,729
about a lot of different studies really

1382
01:05:57,739 --> 01:05:55,769
really quickly just the high level of

1383
01:06:00,650 --> 01:05:57,749
bullet points for each one I think it's

1384
01:06:05,120 --> 01:06:00,660
great I think it's a great practice and

1385
01:06:07,160 --> 01:06:05,130
to bring it home to people by me having

1386
01:06:10,309 --> 01:06:07,170
gone to a number of these conferences

1387
01:06:12,589 --> 01:06:10,319
and not being a scientist how I would

1388
01:06:15,799 --> 01:06:12,599
tell the average person what it's like

1389
01:06:17,509 --> 01:06:15,809
it's like going to a very the poster

1390
01:06:22,999 --> 01:06:17,519
sessions are like going to very

1391
01:06:24,829 --> 01:06:23,009
sophisticated and informative science

1392
01:06:27,519 --> 01:06:24,839
projects like if you have a science fair

1393
01:06:29,989 --> 01:06:27,529
at a high school where kids are making

1394
01:06:32,509 --> 01:06:29,999
certain experiments and explaining it to

1395
01:06:35,209 --> 01:06:32,519
people as they pass by but instead these

1396
01:06:38,120 --> 01:06:35,219
are real scientists they're not high

1397
01:06:40,219 --> 01:06:38,130
school kids they've got real strong data

1398
01:06:42,800 --> 01:06:40,229
and they're presenting it to you as you

1399
01:06:45,350 --> 01:06:42,810
pass by and it's it's really an unbelief

1400
01:06:45,890 --> 01:06:45,360
a bully positive experience it was for

1401
01:06:49,970 --> 01:06:45,900
me

1402
01:06:52,520 --> 01:06:49,980
so mark Baku Z co-founder of the wind

1403
01:06:55,250 --> 01:06:52,530
bridge Institute I want to thank you so

1404
01:06:58,520 --> 01:06:55,260
much for being with us today and we hope

1405
01:07:00,460 --> 01:06:58,530
to have both you and dr. by shell back

1406
01:07:04,120 --> 01:07:00,470
in the future and we are in fact

1407
01:07:05,480 --> 01:07:04,130
planning to have the editor of your

1408
01:07:08,480 --> 01:07:05,490
journal

1409
01:07:10,640 --> 01:07:08,490
David Metcalf on in the not-too-distant

1410
01:07:12,440 --> 01:07:10,650
future we've got to have a few people in

1411
01:07:14,120 --> 01:07:12,450
between all the wind bridge people but

1412
01:07:16,370 --> 01:07:14,130
we we're going to we're planning on

1413
01:07:18,590 --> 01:07:16,380
having him on on a variety of topics

1414
01:07:20,600 --> 01:07:18,600
including the journal that's wonderful

1415
01:07:22,520 --> 01:07:20,610
David is an amazing guy so thank you so

1416
01:07:24,740 --> 01:07:22,530
much for having oh well thanks thanks

1417
01:07:27,980 --> 01:07:24,750
again and looking forward to seeing you

1418
01:07:32,120 --> 01:07:27,990
and Julie in June excellent all right

1419
01:07:34,820 --> 01:07:32,130
bye now so this was a very very

1420
01:07:37,280 --> 01:07:34,830
interesting discussion and I wish we had

1421
01:07:40,430 --> 01:07:37,290
more time because I think Mark had a lot

1422
01:07:44,840 --> 01:07:40,440
of more stuff to tell us about but we do

1423
01:07:47,750 --> 01:07:44,850
have a time constraint and I just want

1424
01:07:53,840 --> 01:07:47,760
to review with you of my listening

1425
01:07:57,550 --> 01:07:53,850
audience that we have two websites for

1426
01:08:01,460 --> 01:07:57,560
the first one is shattered reality

1427
01:08:05,150 --> 01:08:01,470
podcast.com the second one is shattered

1428
01:08:07,280 --> 01:08:05,160
reality podcast wordpress.com and at

1429
01:08:09,800 --> 01:08:07,290
that at this moment that's the one

1430
01:08:12,470 --> 01:08:09,810
that's completely up-to-date we in

1431
01:08:16,640 --> 01:08:12,480
addition have a YouTube channel

1432
01:08:20,660 --> 01:08:16,650
shattered reality podcast and we have a

1433
01:08:24,380 --> 01:08:20,670
Facebook page which appears to be a

1434
01:08:28,010 --> 01:08:24,390
radio station we are not a radio station

1435
01:08:31,820 --> 01:08:28,020
we are a podcast and we hope for more

1436
01:08:34,430 --> 01:08:31,830
likes on our Facebook page and comments

1437
01:08:40,160 --> 01:08:34,440
on both of all of the other three

1438
01:08:45,320 --> 01:08:40,170
mediums the the the two blog the two

1439
01:08:48,890 --> 01:08:45,330
blog sites and as well as on our youtube

1440
01:08:51,230 --> 01:08:48,900
listening so we're hoping to have miss

1441
01:08:55,940 --> 01:08:51,240
Kate Valentine back on next week with us